Where do you get that we have missed out on him? We can be doing more. That seems to be a common theme that other schools (Yale) are outworking us. Not sure how all the schools go about the contact but it seems we are consistently not doing enough.

The B.S. NCAA recruiting Jerome-related restrictions prohibited us from normal recruitment for two periods, the second one ending June 10, so we couldn't be in contact the way Princeton and Yale were. I doubt that we get outworked when we have a free hand.

Yep, all of the truly recruited players on the team had scholarship offers to play at a bunch of other schools, so can't use that as some kind of crutch.

Looks like today Brandon Lieb got 2020 offers from Oklahoma State and Utah as well. Clearly his stock is taking off. This would be a great chance to show we can punch above our weight for a recruit, so fingers crossed.

In addition the Wolves had Chasson Randle who starred at Stanford and played a year with the Knicks so they are obviously a fertile ground for occasional Ivy recruits.

It was never a budgetary constraint. It was a constraint imposed by our President who nixed a plan to put a high salary coach in place, a transaction that was all but done. She felt no Penn coach should be paid that amount considering the salaries of most full time professors. Maybe she’s right.

The result though Jerome Allen and all that followed.

It was a constraint imposed by our President who nixed a plan to put a high salary coach in place, a transaction that was all but done.

This is the NEW thread. Let's talk mostly about players here.

Start a separate institutional advantages thread, Palestra38 so that we can have a thread to just search players. Of course FA will come up in this thread, but let's have the debates somewhere else? It really is nice to have a simple thread when we want to refer to old recruiting news.

https://twitter.com/CBHSbasketball/status /12751731...

Penn has extended an offer to Reese McMullen, a 6'3" guard from Christian Brothers High School in Memphis, TN. He currently has offers from Dartmouth, Lipscomb, Holy Cross, and Army, and Princeton and Yale have both expressed interest as well

A few plusses and some minuses from his highlights:

Defense:
Great defensive positioning and very quick hands. Reads offenses well to understand where he should rotate on the weak side, anticipate the cutter, and read the screen to high post flare. This clearly would be an asset in guarding ivy teams. From these highlights I don’t get a sense of his willingness to guard more than the 1-2, obviously not really rn job of a PG or combo guard, but something we all loved about Antonio Woods.

Offense:
I can see why Donahue would be very high on this kid. Clearly spaces the floor as a shooter, understands how to drive and collapse defenses, and has great court vision to find the cutter or open man. Also doesn’t crowd the ball handler or lane (unlike some of our guys). I didn’t see that great of ball handling (a few behind the backs at the foul line that definitely wouldn’t fly in college) but of all the skills - this is one that can be refined and drastically improved quickly. You can’t teach good decision making nearly as quickly.

Ed Holland released his top 8:

Finally some good news! Penn is involved along with Yale, Princeton, Columbia, Penn State, VCU, Rhode Island, and Providence.

A good mix of mid majors along with a few HM programs, unfortunately we can’t pursue the AAU-team up route with his teammate Stevie Mitchell. Hoping for some good fortunes here.

A new forward I just saw us mention with is Ian Schieffelin, 6’9” 225 forward from Georgia.

Jake Lieberman
@jakelieberman2
Rising senior Ian Schieffelin, (@ian_schieffelin) tells me that Clemson, Virginia Tech, Penn, Wofford, Charleston, and Western Carolina have shown interest. He holds offers from Georgia State, App State, Richmond, Charlotte, and others.

http://www.verbalcommits.com/players/ian-schieffel ...

So no offer yet but sounds like we have interest.

Great news that we made Top 8 cut for Ed Holland III, and agree he looks like a great prospect. We have a bit of home court advantage, so I'm hoping that goes in our favor. I would think that he is certainly one of our top targets (and would guess he has been for some time). We offered very early in the process as well compared to most of the schools on his final list.

Other programming note - Casey Simmons committed to Northwestern, which I would imagine means that Princeton and Yale could also be prioritizing Ed Holland III (though there isn't a public offer from Princeton as of yet, they did have him on for a Zoom pitch recently).

For me, this recruitment is an important one to watch, considering strong competition in league and with very good mid-high major programs.

Correct. Princeton generally stays very quiet on the trail. Tend to only find out they’re involved when a recruit mentions them or when they’re up against another Ivy. And because they go their own way a fair deal, pretty frequently neither of those gets tripped for a particular recruit.

I put very little stock in these videos, because-- let's face it-- highlights videos can make the most ordinary players look like Nate Archibald. However, even factoring that in, I can't help but be impressed. He looks tough, fearless and fundamentally sound, with the kind of ball skills you'd expect in a guard. Very nice form on his jumper. He can shoot off the dribble (we don't see a lot of players at Penn who can do that well). He hoists up 30-footers with zero hesitation (and hits them, at least on video). Overall, he looks like the prototypical Donahue player. and we shouldn't underestimate the value of that. So I'm encouraged.

Apparently the successor to MLL and AJ

2nd coming of Marin Kukoc, hopefully without the bad back

I have also noticed that, despite what I have read, many players in the dugout do NOT wear masks, they are still spitting and balls don't seem to be taken out of play as quickly as I thought they would, e.g. after two players have touched it on a particular play.

I actually don’t think either of those could have impacted us in their full intended effect for the following:

First, in person recruiting became impossible for everyone, so if we waited for the end of the year to uphold that sanction it became dilatory by March.

Second, the NCAA has enforced recruitment dead periods throughout the spring and at points overlapping with our sanctions. So I don’t actually think, because of COVID, that the sanctions hindered us as much as they would have.

Let's not act like the Liacouras Center is some phenomenal atmosphere. The lack of student support is most likely not why kids are turning down Penn.

the AAC is a killer for basketball.

I keep hearing the negatives about Donahue's recruiting, but aside from 1 class, he's always come up with good players. These are his best players from each recruiting class:

Year 1: AJ, Betley, Goodman (An A+ year)

Year 2: Jelani Williams, Simmons, Scott (C, but likely would have been much better if Williams had not gotten hurt)

Year 3: Wang, Washington (B wiped out by injury)

Year 4: Dingle, Martz, Lorca-Lloyd, Charles, Monroe---the jury is out, but all these guys could be very good. And having 5 freshmen from last year ready to play might have an effect on recruiting for this year. But I don't think that the negative opinions regarding his recruiting are fair---He's had only 1 subpar year and his losses are primarily due to injury.

For 2018, is losing out to Yale on Cotton and Kelly the end of the world? Two years in, Wang and Washington have 3.5 win shares, and cotton and Kelly have 1.0. And that is with Wang and Washington basically both missing a season.

Note that Amaker took over a similar situation and only had three top four finishes and one title in his first five years (while Donahue has four top four finishes and a title).

During the last four years, Harvard has 4 more wins than Penn. Four.

Ed Holland commits to Penn

https://twitter.com/edholland15/status/13 092112901...

The traditional back to the basket big is almost extinct (Joel Embiid being a rare example and who shows why you need to be able to run).

“It’s a school that fits all of my needs,” Larson explained. “It’s a great basketball program with great academics. It’s a place that I can go to get me where I want to be basketball wise, while also setting me up for life.”

Thoughts on Larson? I've heard him termed a project, more-so than the bigs we already have who are projects. Who is Penn's competition for him, assuming SD does want him?

I think Mike is referring to a need in this recruiting class. I agree with him, especially as we did not recruit a “ legit” big in the prior class.

I continue not to see what people mean by a "legit big." In today's game, Lorca-Lloyd is a perfect big---you have to run the court, block shots and are able to shoot around the basket. The traditional back to the basket big is almost extinct (Joel Embiid being a rare example and who shows why you need to be able to run). I think he will be a beast at our level....and we have a few guys (Wang, Martz and all those 6'4-6" guards we have like Williams, Monroe and Charles) who will play the game that Donahue wants to play.

I think the gnashing of teeth is unwarranted---we will be fine and might be very very good. This is the most athletic team we have had at least since the Ugonna era.

And for whom the system would have to be changed--they were not going to do that for a 5-10 minute blow when they had a guy who had been there for 3 years in that system.

I am comfortable with MLL and Wang, and the fact we didn’t get a big last year suggests the staff is too. Simmons has been reliably healthy (knock on wood), so hopefully we can get away with 3 bigs this year, with the possibility that injuries require an occasional Jackson sighting or Moshkovitz in a small lineup. But that still seems thin up front in terms of numbers for an Ivy team, particularly without AJ who could paper over a lot on the defensive end (in other words, without AJ we may need more size at times at the 4 despite the fact that our 5 likely will be bigger than AJ). And that will be more than thin if Simmons and Jackson graduate without a replacement or two.

We have the “advantage” of no scholarships and being able to offer more than 12 spots. We definitely need a big body in this class, even if it isn’t a highly recruited one.

" Our rebounding WITH AJ was mediocre to bad. That's what happens when you are always undersized at the 4."

NO! That's what happens when you are undersized in the backcourt, and by a lot. You show me any significant number of college 4s who rack up rebounds like Malone and Oakley and I'll reconsider, but it's just not the case. Essentially, basketball now consists of 5 guys who do much the same thing--run, shoot and rebound, and a big guy who can't run or a guard who can't rebound is a liability. We've been victimized by athletic players who simply get up faster than us--it's rarely an issue of size. We have enough size on this team now. While I would love to get another AJ, it really isn't necessary to do so. It's far more important to get guys who are strong, in great shape and have a shot.

The depth question is all about Wang. If healthy, no problem. Clearly, though, that's why we brought in a juco transfer, and I think that transfer will be an interesting mix--gotta see something more than what we saw on tape but he's not raw.

At least statistically, Goodman was one of the worst defensive rebounders in the league at any position. The difference when we play Yale is that everyone on the floor for them at all times gets over 10% of available defensive rebounds. We were playing with three starters who did not (Goodman, Dingle, and Martz) and another reserve (Jerome).

Rebounding, as we know, is a combination of size, strength, jumping ability, and technique/positioning. Wang did not look like a plus rebounder even when he was healthy; guys like Monroe and Scott, OTOH have shown they can rebound more than their height would predict in part because they both have good length for their size.

While I more or less agree with you as to why we couldn’t rebound, I’m not necessarily uncomfortable with the trade offs we made with the group we had. AJ was best offensively as the only big, and he was our best help defender. And he didn’t wear down physically (much), and he was smart enough to play extended minutes with fouls and not foul out. You play that guy while you’ve got him, basically as much as you possibly can.

" Our rebounding WITH AJ was mediocre to bad. That's what happens when you are always undersized at the 4."

NO! That's what happens when you are undersized in the backcourt, and by a lot. You show me any significant number of college 4s who rack up rebounds like Malone and Oakley and I'll reconsider, but it's just not the case. Essentially, basketball now consists of 5 guys who do much the same thing--run, shoot and rebound, and a big guy who can't run or a guard who can't rebound is a liability. We've been victimized by athletic players who simply get up faster than us--it's rarely an issue of size. We have enough size on this team now. While I would love to get another AJ, it really isn't necessary to do so. It's far more important to get guys who are strong, in great shape and have a shot.

He and 6'10" Bob Maimonides could make one ferocious front court.

Kacper Klaczek put on an absolute show at the Diamonds in the Rough yesterday. I’m not a rankings person( maybe bc I’m so old I don’t know how they actually work🤣) but this kid is every bit as good as any I’ve seen this year. Versatile, smart, tough he’s the absolute package and as certain as I was about Jordan Kacpers game is more college ready. Those closer to Penn can elaborate/speculate about his recruitment. I’m not trying to add to any mystery I’m just putting out what I know. I’m completely new to the specifics involved in Ivy basketball recruiting details...but I’ve heard the interest is mutual

Unfortunately Penn is no longer on Kascper’s radar

But yet again, the oncourt evidence doesn’t fit that narrative. The oncourt evidence doesn’t say Penn has been lapped by Harvard. Penn went to the tournament more recently. The overall records and Pomeroy ratings, while they favor Harvard a bit, do not do so by an amount that suggests lapping. It suggests that it is close. Penn has a better record than Princeton over the last four years, and that includes a year where Princeton went 14-0. Over the last three years, we have won an average of 5 more games per season than Princeton. If that’s getting lapped, great, keep lapping us.

In addition, you act as if the guys on the board are responsible for (your perception of) Penn’s poor recruiting. Who cares if some people on the board are wrong about this? I’m a fan rooting for a team. I like our recruiting in large part because I like our coaches and I like our kids. I have no impact on what the team does in regard to hiring, and I wouldn’t want to.

There are now four top teams recruiting the same guys.

While I don't always agree with Mike, I love his posts and it is a big reason I come on here to participate. So keep it up, contrarian or no.

I think a basketball program is a sum of it's parts. I don't think there is some magical coach who is the missing piece. It has to all line up as P38 suggests. Coach, administration, staff, players. It's tough to get the chemistry right. How long did it take James Jones to get where Yale is now? I don't think anyone thought he was a genius his first 10 or so years.

Steve may not be the guy....but he might be the guy. Right now I am fine with the trajectory we are on. So much of the instant gratification culture wants to make changes and I think the reality is the teams with long term stability and incremental advantages will prevail.

Has the league really changed that much from when Donahue won three straight titles at Cornell? Seems his emphasis on the three point shot on both ends is even more important now.

Penn in the past few years is recruiting in an antiquated fashion...

steve lost his momentum. would have been cool if he could have capitalized on the championship but he's lost it. thanks for proving my point.

• Jeff2sf Said:

Momentum? What are we doing...trading Gamestop? Momentum is another fallacy. It's cool for the short termers who like to churn coaches but it's not a thing in recruiting or coaching.

Besides it’s not like Yale and Princeton have been better the last couple years because they have won head to head recruiting battles with Penn.

Now we may disagree with the approach (recruiting in 2-3 hour drive from Philly) which leads them to ignore some of the AAU talent that otherwise might be inclined, but the idea they aren't in contact is simply not true.

We’ve had the best freshmen in the league by win shares the last two seasons. Again, if this is getting lapped, keep lapping us.

I don't think anyone lost nearly as much as Penn.

And they still made the playoffs every year.

if it was, Harvard would win every year. Or at least one of the last six years.

My point is that Penn can beat Harvard while getting outrecruited.

If your narrative is just that Harvard outrecruits us, then we are all agreed.

I think you’re essentially a paid Harvard shill.

• Quote:

Yeah, I'm gonna take a break from this place for a bit.