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| Username | Post: Jordan Dingle In the Ivies | |
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UPIA1968 PhD Student Posts 1121 
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01-17-22 11:40 PM - Post#333639
His stats so far. All stats per game. Minutes 24 Points 12.8 Rebounds 3.6 2 Shooting 45% 3 shooting 29% FT Shooting .93% Assist to Turnover .36% To the good: his free throw shooting - a significant improvement. Also the 2 shooting and rebounding. Not bad for a guard. To the bad is the terrible assist to turnover ratio and the relatively low minutes per game. Were he the All-Ivy candidate we hoped for, he would be playing well over thirty minutes per game. Apparently, Steve found Smith the most essential player against Princeton at 37 minutes. I conclude that Jordan remains the creative but inefficient player we have seen these two years. As to the comment that he has to carry too big a load, I say that stars do that well. That is what makes them a star. Did not AJ end his career with a triple-double despite carrying that team? |
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final479 Freshman Posts 49 |
01-18-22 04:35 AM - Post#333641
I couldn't disagree with this more. Jordan is FAR and AWAY the best player on this team, and a tremendous talent. We should all step away from the spreadsheets and use our eyes. He's constantly doubled and harassed, mainly because our opponents worry far less about his teammates. Think about it, he's playing with a bunch of inexperienced, slight, guys between 6-2 and 6-6. Missing a lot of core talent and really no big help - Mosh is the big man, listed at a very charitable 6-7. By way of comparison, Jaelin Llewellyn (a 4* recruit, Princeton's leading scorer and likely 1st team all Ivy) logged the lowest minutes on the Princeton core rotation (24), and only scored 11 and went 1- 5 from 3. Does that disqualify him somehow? Of course not. Same reason, he was Penn's no. 1 defensive target and I'm guessing the goal was to let others beat us. |
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Chip Bayers Professor Posts 7001
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01-18-22 06:50 AM - Post#333642
Llewelyn has been dealing with an injury that caused him to miss the previous two games so not surprising his minutes were limited, unlike Dingle yesterday. Dingle’s per game minutes numbers over these first five are skewed in part by his foul trouble in the Cornell game, which severely limited his time that night. On the year the guy has logged nearly 50 more minutes than the next most heavily used, Williams, and that’s despite missing the Arkansas game, when he was sick. |
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andybech Freshman Posts 81 |
01-18-22 12:05 PM - Post#333660
One of Dingle's weaknesses is he is not a good passer when he penetrates on the dribble. That is why he gets doubled and is easier to defend than he should - because the threat of a pass to an open man is just not there. He is still probably Penn's best player, but he does need to improve in some areas. |
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UPIA1968 PhD Student Posts 1121
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01-18-22 11:08 PM - Post#333695
If Jordan is Penn's best player then the team is mediocre indeed. |
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nychoops Junior Posts 243 |
01-19-22 12:17 AM - Post#333696
Got this text from a HC a few weeks back after watching the Utah St tape( he was scouting Ust)”this is the least talented Penn team I’ve seen in 10+ years. It’s not a stretch to say w/o Jo D they don’t win a single game all season.” Every single game plan is designed to focus on him. He shoots to much he’s selfish. He passes to much his numbers decrease he gets criticized. He is playing EXACTLY like he is being instructed to. |
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Mike Porter Postdoc Posts 3618 
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01-19-22 01:32 AM - Post#333697
Couldn’t agree with you more and the fact that we’ve come back around to the ridiculous argument that Jordan Dingle is somehow the problem is laughable. Dude is clearly the star of the team. He may have had a rough couple of games, but the opposing teams are obviously keying in on him and they can without enough other players doing enough damage. The reason we lost to Princeton is because this team is unfortunately not very good. It’s a 220 ranked KP team doing 220 ranked KP team things. Want the team to be better than 220 4th/5th/6th place team? Then we need to recruit better. Jordan Dingle is not the problem. Not sure how many times we need to cover this. |
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Penndemonium PhD Student Posts 1900 |
01-19-22 04:25 AM - Post#333699
Yeah. You can love him or not, but he is the only player on our team that can create a shot and put pressure on our opponents. Hopefully players like Smith, Charles, MLL, and Slajchert will get there with time. |
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SomeGuy Professor Posts 6413 |
01-19-22 08:53 AM - Post#333702
I wish we could discuss this in a way that isn’t either “Jordan isn’t any good” or “nobody else on the team can play.” Obviously he is a tremendous offensive talent who could play at a higher level. But if that coach watched any of the last four games, he would undoubtedly conclude that this team can win games without him, too. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32835 |
01-19-22 09:00 AM - Post#333703
If you watched the last few games, you have to question whether that, in fact, is true. When Dingle is not in the flow, Penn has very little firepower. |
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SomeGuy Professor Posts 6413 |
01-19-22 10:10 AM - Post#333705
Regardless, we’ve won two of the last four. My point is simply that it is kind of ridiculous to say we can’t win a single game without him. We’ve been competing without getting much contribution from him. Obviously we need him in order to be the type of team we want to be. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32835 |
01-19-22 10:39 AM - Post#333706
The teams we are playing (including Princeton) are not that good. That's a large part of the reason I was so optimistic. Of course, I anticipated that Wang and MLL were healthy and gave us a strong interior game. I also believed (and still believe) that Monroe and Charles are both very solid young players who need PT. But we need to get Dingle shots and opportunities, and not just give him the ball and ask him to play hero ball. |
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Penndemonium PhD Student Posts 1900 |
01-19-22 12:49 PM - Post#333708
I agree with that point. We do not run as many shot screens for our three point shooters as I would have expected. We seem to prefer the inside out three pointer or ball swing. I think it would be better for Jordan if we ran plays designed to free him instead of just trying to get him to break down his defender alone. Unfortunately, our passing is not fast enough and gives the team time to adjust. Many of our three pointers are difficult ones. They need to whip passes more, but the decision-making is a bit slower than the better Donahue teams. Jordan is very capable of breaking down his defender, but Ivy teams have scouted that enough to know that is coming. |
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UPIA1968 PhD Student Posts 1121
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01-20-22 12:07 AM - Post#333758
This whole discussion ends with one of two depressing conclusions. Either the coaching staff or Jordan are incapable of defeating the overplays on Jordan by involving the others - or - the others are incapable of benefiting from the overplays on Jordan. Sadly this problem is nothing new in the Donahue era. in only one year did the true superstar AJ win more than eight Ivy games. Interestingly, in AJ's last two years he scored efficiently and created assists by the dozen while the team remained mediocre. So, if this team somehow wins eight games, we can conclude it has superior supporting players to the last two AJ teams despite the presence of Dev and Betley. That is unless you think Jordan is as good as AJ. |
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Penndemonium PhD Student Posts 1900 |
01-20-22 02:53 AM - Post#333762
Betley was hurt for a full season and a bit more limited for his last. AJ became a really good passer by his senior year - which was a huge surprise to me. That helped improve his efficiency when teams started focusing on him. He struggled in his Freshman/Sophomore years with double-teams, as JD is now. He is playing a hybrid PG role that isn't ideal for him. It is rare that someone else has partially broken down the defense or created any effective space or distraction before he gets the ball. Contrary to others, I think the team is playing hard. I'm still fine with the way they represent us to their abilities. They are just not clearly superior in talent to the league, and they do not operate with speed and precision to compensate. I'm very supportive of these players this year and proud they wear Red and Blue. I hope JD (or anyone else) will have a 2nd half leadership emergence the way Foreman did years ago. 
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32835 |
01-20-22 09:16 AM - Post#333767
"So, if this team somehow wins eight games, we can conclude it has superior supporting players to the last two AJ teams despite the presence of Dev and Betley. That is unless you think Jordan is as good as AJ." This presumes the rest of the League is as good as it was in the two years after the AJ team won the Ivy title. And that, of course, is not the case. We can win 8 with a much weaker team. |
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SomeGuy Professor Posts 6413 |
01-20-22 11:18 AM - Post#333772
Yes. It also presumes that getting 8 wins rather than 7 or 9 is a heck of a lot more meaningful than it actually is. Those are simply a couple of bounces. The last two AJ teams underperformed their ratings in league, but within the predictable range of outcomes. This current group could do the opposite. I wouldn’t draw any ultimate conclusions based on whether they happen to win the same number of games. All that said, the supporting cast has been doing pretty well of late. In the last 7 games, we’ve had 6 different leading scorers. We’re not winning as much as we’d like, but we have been competitive in all 7, and we’ve won 3. |
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andybech Freshman Posts 81 |
01-20-22 01:01 PM - Post#333780
Those previous teams did a much better job of finding open shooters (AJ or Dev primarily) though the shooters probably were not as good as the ones on this team. Princeton largely guarded the 3 very well. But we also saw Dingle driving into double teams. So somebody had to be open. Mosh is also not as good a high post passer as AJ. Clearly this team can do better on offense. Jonah Charles is as good a 3-point shooter as they have had at Penn, but he is one dimensional and needs his teammates to get him open and find him. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32835 |
01-20-22 01:26 PM - Post#333782
Can't get open to shoot if he is not on the court. 10 total minutes in the past 2 games. |
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penn nation Professor Posts 21212 |
01-20-22 02:47 PM - Post#333801
Can't get open to shoot if he is not on the court. 10 total minutes in the past 2 games. Andybech is correct. Penn needs to design plays or sets to get him open. He is only a weapon for us if he is given a reasonable chance at 3 point opportunities while on the court. We have a scarcity of players who can create their own shots. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32835 |
01-20-22 03:05 PM - Post#333804
That's on the coach, isn't it? But let's not get too far ahead on this. First priority is not letting ourselves lose on the boards as we did with Columbia. You cannot outplay a team but allow it 20 more rebounds, leading to 15 more free throws. |
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SomeGuy Professor Posts 6413 |
01-20-22 04:42 PM - Post#333808
The offense looks better and flows better when we get more cutters. We didn’t get those against Princeton. That may be by design. We may have decided that if they were going to guard the 3 point line, we would make them stay out there and guard it by having 4 guys stand around out there. And then just try to post up, and only kick it if someone comes to help. But that’s just a guess. Even if your goal is to stay out of the way of the guy operating inside, you still can run a cutter at the basket. Monroe does this well. So does Dingle. If they are taking away other stuff Jordan does, let’s get him diving to the basket without the ball. |
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Penndemonium PhD Student Posts 1900 |
01-20-22 04:53 PM - Post#333810
This is an interesting point. In past seasons, we got open 3 pointers and weren't great at making them. Now we have some decent shooters (I think), but we are either worse in creating open shots or are being defended more actively at the three point line. I still think the issue is that our ball movement is slow.
Those previous teams did a much better job of finding open shooters (AJ or Dev primarily) though the shooters probably were not as good as the ones on this team. Princeton largely guarded the 3 very well. But we also saw Dingle driving into double teams. So somebody had to be open. Mosh is also not as good a high post passer as AJ. Clearly this team can do better on offense. Jonah Charles is as good a 3-point shooter as they have had at Penn, but he is one dimensional and needs his teammates to get him open and find him. |
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penn nation Professor Posts 21212 |
01-20-22 05:58 PM - Post#333818
This is an interesting point. In past seasons, we got open 3 pointers and weren't great at making them. Now we have some decent shooters (I think), but we are either worse in creating open shots or are being defended more actively at the three point line. I still think the issue is that our ball movement is slow. At least in the Princeton game, they were definitely being defended very actively at the 3 point line. But that said, even Dingle could not free himself up one on one from deep once he had the ball by the arc. Everyone was trying to do it by themselves, little off the ball movement by other players. |
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