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| Username | Post: Predictions for 2021-22 All-Ivy |
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IvyBballFan Masters Student Posts 479 |
03-06-22 05:47 PM - Post#338231
Predictions for All-Ivy (players within teams in alphabetical order): First Team Jordan Dingle, Penn, Soph, G Tosan Evbuomwan, Princeton, Jr, F Noah Kirkwood, Harvard, Sr, F Azar Swain, Yale, Sr, G Ethan Wright, Princeton, Sr, G Second Team Brendan Barry, Dartmouth, Grad, G Tamenang Choh, Brown, Grad, F Jalen Gabbidon, Yale, Sr, G Jaylan Gainey, Brown, Sr, C Jaelin Llewellyn, Princeton, Sr, G HM Ryan Langborg, Princeton, Jr, G Max Martz, Penn, Soph, F If it were possible, one could actually consider naming the entire Cornell team as a single unit which deserves HM, too. The team would not have made the ILT if any one of them were missing. POY- Wright, Princeton DPOY- Gainey, Brown Co-ROYs-Lilly, Brown & Rai, Dartmouth Aaryn Rai crashed this list by averaging 9R, 16P over Dartmouth’s last five games, with three double-doubles, to lead the Green to a fifth place finish. COY- Brian Earl Coach Earl has done everything one can ask of a fifth year coach at one of the Ivy League’s (let’s face it…) basketball mini-four. He took a team led by Courtney recruits Morgan and Gettings to the 2018 Ivy League Tournament and then a Morgan-led team to the CIT in 2019. Now his odyssey continues as he takes a star-less team of his own guys to the ILT, using a coaching approach not seen in the Ivies for many years. That’s darn impressive. |
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Old Bear Postdoc Posts 4000 |
03-06-22 06:11 PM - Post#338232
I don't believe Rai is eligible for ROY. |
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Tiger81 Masters Student Posts 412 
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03-06-22 06:43 PM - Post#338235
Drew Friberg is a more likely HM All-Ivy than Ryan and Tosan a more likely POY than Ethan, IMHO. And while I agree Coach Earl has done a great job this season, his team finished 7-7. I believe Coach Henderson, whose team was picked third pre-season and then went 12-2, is a more deserving COY. |
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weinhauers_ghost Postdoc Posts 2140 |
03-06-22 07:13 PM - Post#338236
On the Penn side, I would have to add Clark Slajchert to the ROY mix. I think he may also deserve HM more than Max Martz does. |
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HARVARDDADGRAD Postdoc Posts 2697 |
03-06-22 07:33 PM - Post#338238
Rai is a Senior! |
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SRP Postdoc Posts 4915 |
03-06-22 07:58 PM - Post#338242
Tosan would be the most logical Tiger POY candidate, since everything starts with his unique skills and effort. It’s true that things often finish with Wright, who provides whatever is needed that game, but Tosan is the straw that stirs the drink, somewhat revamping the “Princeton center” role. |
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IvyBballFan Masters Student Posts 479 |
03-06-22 09:50 PM - Post#338246
Rai is a Senior! Whoops. Thanks to you, HDG, and one poster above for picking me up! My bad! |
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whitakk Masters Student Posts 523 |
03-06-22 10:01 PM - Post#338248
Not predictions but my own picks are: First team: Tosan (POY) Dingle Kirkwood Swain Choh Second team: Llewellyn Gabbidon Wright Noll Barry ROY: Lilly, but basically even with Slajchert COY: Earl, but would be fine with Henderson too DPOY: lean Gabbidon but not much feel here, could be convinced by Gainey or a dark horse. (Believe it or not Dartmouth had the league's best defense if you control for 3P%/FT% luck.) As for what the votes will be, I think Llewellyn will get on the first team somehow, maybe over Choh or maybe we get (at least?) six players with ties again, and no idea how POY shakes out. |
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westcoast Senior Posts 302 |
03-06-22 10:37 PM - Post#338250
Here are my picks: First Team Jordan Dingle, Penn, Soph, G Tosan Evbuomwan, Princeton, Jr, F Noah Kirkwood, Harvard, Sr, F Jaelin Llewellyn, Princeton, Sr, G Azar Swain, Yale, Sr, G Second Team Brendan Barry, Dartmouth, Grad, G Tamenang Choh, Brown, Grad, F Jalen Gabbidon, Yale, Sr, G Jaylan Gainey, Brown, Sr, C Ethan Wright, Princeton, Sr, G HM: Friberg, Langborg, Martz, Noll, Rai, Slajchert POY: Evbuomwan ROY: Lilly over Slajchert DPOY: Gabbidon/Gainey (tie) COY: Henderson over Earl |
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Penndemonium PhD Student Posts 1900 |
03-06-22 10:41 PM - Post#338251
Just curious b/c I don't really follow the other Ivy teams. Is Dingle a strong POY candidate this year? He seems worthy but I am completely ignorant about the rest of the league. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32854 |
03-06-22 10:54 PM - Post#338254
Being a soph, it's really unlikely. But Jordan is the leading scorer in the League by over 3 ppg, on a team with fewer other offensive weapons than any of his competitors. He would clearly be PoY if it weren't for his 2nd year status. |
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SomeGuy Professor Posts 6413 |
03-06-22 11:37 PM - Post#338258
I wouldn’t be shocked if Dingle is POY, but I also wouldn’t be shocked if all the seniors manage to squeeze him to 2nd team, as crazy as that probably sounds. I’m still picking Manon for ROY and Earl for COY. Best guess is POY comes from Princeton. I’m just not sure who it will be. |
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Tiger84 Senior Posts 380 |
03-07-22 01:18 AM - Post#338267
Dingle is clearly first team along with Kirkwood, Swain and Evbuomwan. The 5th will be either Llewelyn or Wright, take your pick. Only Azar and Tosan are in the discussion for POTY. |
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ToothlessTiger Senior Posts 337 |
03-07-22 09:27 AM - Post#338274
I wholeheartedly agree with west coast. All of his picks are good ones. |
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Ever True Junior Posts 255 |
03-07-22 10:51 AM - Post#338284
FWIW, the perspective from the analytics sites. Ivy League all-Kenpom Tosan Evbuomwan, Princeton, Jr, F Azar Swain, Yale, Sr, G Jordan Dingle, Penn, So, G Noah Kirkwood, Harvard, Sr, G Tamenang Choh, Brown, Grad, F Torvik (10 best players according to Torvik's PRPG!*) First Team Tosan Evbuomwan, Princeton, Jr, F Jordan Dingle, Penn, So, G Ethan Wright, Princeton, Sr, G Noah Kirkwood, Harvard, Sr, G Jaelin Llewellyn, Princeton, Sr, G Second Team Keller Boothby, Cornell, So, G Azar Swain, Yale, Sr, G Tamenang Choh, Brown, Grad, F Brendan Barry, Dartmouth, Grad, G Max Martz, Penn, So, F *Description of PRPG! here: https://www.bigtengeeks.com/new-stat-porpagatu/#u p... |
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PennFan10 Postdoc Posts 3589 |
03-07-22 01:31 PM - Post#338305
I believe each coach nominates their own players and then all the coaches vote for each team/award. Usually the top 5 vote getters will be 1st team and the others get bumped to 2nd team/HM Princeton will get the POY and it will be whomever Henderson nominates for the award. If he puts forth Tosan, Llewellyn, or EW that's who it will be. I'd be shocked if Henderson weren't COY. |
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rbg Postdoc Posts 3059 |
03-07-22 02:02 PM - Post#338307
Men First Team Tosan Evbuomwan, Princeton, F Noah Kirkwood, Harvard, F Jordan Dingle, Penn, Soph, G Azar Swain, Yale, Sr, G Jaelin Llewellyn, Princeton, Sr, G Second Team Tamenang Choh, Brown, Grad, F Brendan Barry, Dartmouth, Grad, G Jalen Gabbidon, Yale, Sr, G Ethan Wright, Princeton, Sr, G Dean Noll, Cornell, Sr, G HM: Friberg (Princeton), Martz (Penn), Gainey (Brown) POY: Evbuomwan ROY: Lilly DPOY: Gainey COY: Henderson Women First Team Kaitlyn Davis, Columbia, Jr, F Camilla Emsbo, Yale, Jr, F Abby Meyers, Princeton, Sr, G Julia Cunningham, Princeton, Jr, G Abbey Hsu, Columbia, Soph, G Second Team Jordan Obi, Penn, Soph, F McKenzie Forbes, Jr, F/G Kayla Padilla, Penn, Jr, G Harmoni Turner, Harvard, FY, G Jenna Clark, Yale, Soph, G HM: Mbanefo (Cornell), Mitchell (Princeton), Stone (Princeton) POY: Meyers ROY: Turner DPOY: Emsbo COY: Berube |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32854 |
03-07-22 02:06 PM - Post#338310
Agreed....I think the only question is ROY. But Lilly probably has an advantage because (1) it's a way to give something to Brown, (2) He was a starter and Slajchert came off the bench and (3) he's a true freshman and Slajchert is a soph But Slajchert's numbers are better. |
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HARVARDDADGRAD Postdoc Posts 2697 |
03-07-22 03:36 PM - Post#338322
Chris Manon: 10.2ppg; 3.6rpg; 1.8apg; 48.8 fg%; 0.4 blocks; 1.8 steals Clark Slajchert: 11.0ppg; 2.2rpg; 1.3apg; 47.3 fg%; 0.0 blocks; 0.5 steals Kino Lilly: 13.3ppg; 1.6rpg; 2.4apg; 43.4 fg%; 0.1 blocks; 1.3 steal Just on these numbers alone I would go with Manon. Also, Manon became the defacto leader of Cornell on the court. For me, the clincher is that due to Cornell's 10+ man rotation, Manon played 18 minutes per game whereas Slachert played 24.1 min/g and Lilly 29.7 min/g. Not only is Manon the best defender and likely his team's leader in his first year, but if you look at stats per 40 minutes, Manon blows them away. For example, in conference games, points per 40 minutes would be: 24.8 Manon 18.1 Slachert 17.4 Lilly Manon is unquestionably the best defender (block and steals) and rebounder. In conference he also easily had more assists per 40 minutes as well; 4.15 Manon 2.72 Lily 2.19 Slachert For those of you leaning on Lily's 3 point shooting, Manon prevails as well (in conference): 51.2% Manon 51.1% Slachert 43.4% Lily The only statistics that favor anyone other than Manon are minutes played and FT%. The minutes were merely a product of Cornell's usage. Based on play this season, Manon is easily the choice. If I had a chance to recruit one of these guys away from Cornell, I'd choose Manon as well. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32854 |
03-07-22 03:42 PM - Post#338323
Manon is shooting .385 from 3 in conference (don't know where you are getting the 3 point shooting number), shooting FT's at 62.5% and making a whopping 2.6 TOs in 18.6 minutes. That will probably disqualify him. https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/chris... |
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PennFan10 Postdoc Posts 3589 |
03-07-22 04:01 PM - Post#338326
If awards were given per 40 min we’d have a whole different crew for all league. That’s not how it works. There’s a reason Manon is playing just 18 min a game. Probably his turnovers as p38 indicates. What’s that number for 40 min? Yikes. |
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Tiger84 Senior Posts 380 |
03-07-22 06:27 PM - Post#338354
I don't see Emsbo as first-team. I think you have to consider Mitchell and Chen as at least Second Team...one of Padilla, Turner, Chen or Mitchell could be first team as well. I am also not 100% sold on Hsu being first team, but won't be shocked if she is there. I don't see Forbes being second team, but granted I only saw her against the Tigers. I think her brother Mason has a better chance of getting All-Ivy votes. And on the Tigers, I think Mitchell and Chen are ahead of Stone in terms of getting votes. No objections to Clark or Obi as second team. If Meyers doesn't win POY and win it unanimously, I would be shocked. |
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bradley PhD Student Posts 1842 |
03-07-22 07:29 PM - Post#338357
I honestly struggle with the men and women selections for 1st team and 2nd team. Majority of the picks suggested by several posters make good sense but there are very good arguments for various players. Looking at it from only the Tigers' perspective, I would select Wright over Jaelin for 1st team based on Wright's rebounding and playing against the other team's best guard, sometimes not all that well --but very tough call. As to the women, Mitchell is absolutely essential to the success of the Tigers. In a pick up game, I suspect that Carla would either take Meyers or Mitchell 1st then followed closely behind by Julia and either Stone or Chen as 4th/5th. I understand that there are all types of legitimate compromises therefore the Tigers' women or men will not get 3 1st team players. When a team's average marin of winning is 27+ points, you may well have 3 1st team players unless you have Breanna Stewart on your team. It matters but really does not matter at the end of the day. |
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IvyBballFan Masters Student Posts 479 |
03-07-22 08:38 PM - Post#338366
Looking at it from only the Tigers' perspective, I would select Wright over Jaelin for 1st team based on Wright's rebounding and playing against the other team's best guard, sometimes not all that well --but very tough call. I second this. Ethan Wright, with 7.0RPG, is far and away the best rebounding guard in the league, and is actually the fourth-best rebounder in the whole league. Swain and Llewellyn, with just over 4RPG, are not even in the top twenty in the whole league. Wright is not flashy, but he did many little things that contributed to the Tigers' winning the regular season. I think his overall versatility gives him the edge in the POY discussion. |
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SomeGuy Professor Posts 6413 |
03-07-22 09:54 PM - Post#338374
The reason Manon plays 18 per game is simply that Cornell chooses to play that way. He’s one of about 7 guys who basically play half the game. Nobody plays more than that. Cornell will get represented on All-Ivy. Manon is the best guess, though it could be Dean Noll, too. And you keep saying Earl won’t get COY. There is simply no way that a team that makes the Ivy tournament doesn’t get representation on All-Ivy somewhere. |
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HARVARDDADGRAD Postdoc Posts 2697 |
03-07-22 10:43 PM - Post#338387
Noah Kirkwood is a pretty strong rebounder. As Harvard’s on ball defender, he’s often away from the basket when a shot goes up. |
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PennFan10 Postdoc Posts 3589 |
03-07-22 11:18 PM - Post#338391
Man on is 7th on the team in average minutes. Obviously Cornell plays 8 plus guys but 5 of them average 20+ and Manno isn’t one of them. The IL coaches aren’t voting players ROY based on stats per 40 min. They are going to vote the guys who are the best scorers regardless of minutes. Lilly is probably the guy and there is an argument for Slajchert. I don’t see a viable argument for Manon. |
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SecS3 Junior Posts 246 |
03-08-22 12:39 AM - Post#338396
I don't see Emsbo as a first team either. As someone said during the season, stars shine in big games and she certainly didn't shine in Yale's four biggest games. I think she replaces Clark on the second team. Also, Julia Cunningham is the defensive player of the year. She's become the reincarnation of Will Venable. Unless it's Ellie Mitchell. Her worth on the defensive end can't be put into stats. |
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bradley PhD Student Posts 1842 |
03-08-22 08:47 AM - Post#338406
Looking at the numbers, the defensive player of the year would be the entire Tigers' womens' team that has allowed 44 pts per game in league play. Knowing that will not happen, logically the defensive player of the year should come from the Tigers. Mitchell or Cunningham would be the obvious choices and either selection would be appropriate. Embso is a good defender and shot blocker --- Yale is the 3rd best defensive team in the IL but she is not the best defender in the league. A compromise would be to have Cunningham and Emsbo 1st team with Mitchell as DPY. As previously stated, it is logical that a team with a 27 pt average margin of victory could easily have 3 first teamers but Mitchell is only a sophomore and her offensive numbers are no great shakes but she is a critical component to the Tigers success, i.e. 16 rebounds against Texas bigs that were 6'4 and 6'3. She would get the award for the number of times that she hits the floor hard per game. At the end of the day, these awards are somewhat subjective and arbitrary but it is interesting. |
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Tiger81 Masters Student Posts 412
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03-08-22 08:52 AM - Post#338407
Good analysis in the Spec showing how dominant Tigers WBB has been this season https://www.columbiaspectator.com/sports/2022/03/0... Agree with the comments about Ellie Mitchell being 1st Team along with Julia and Abby, and Kaitlyn 2nd team with Grace at least HM. And also agree with Julia as DPOY. I know Harmoni Turner had a monster freshman year for Harvard, but Kaitlyn was the starting PG on the league’s best team as a rookie, she needs to be in that conversation too. With Meyers as a POY lock that all seems a little excessive (3 first-teamers, all starters getting league honors, DPOY, ROY) … but this team was head and shoulders above the rest of the Ivies this year. |
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bradley PhD Student Posts 1842 |
03-08-22 09:46 AM - Post#338411
If Coach Berube selected a pick up team, I suspect that her first pick would be Mitchell. Berube was a "glue" type player at UCONN, similar to the role played by Mitchell. It was interesting that the ACC Coach of the Year stated that the "best" player on his team was selected as 2nd team all ACC even though he had ACC Player of the Year on his team. Awards are awards but coaches really know. |
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SecS3 Junior Posts 246 |
03-08-22 10:39 AM - Post#338421
There's a reason why Princeton dominated the league this year. They had most of the best players and deserve to be recognized as such. However, since we now live in a participation trophy world, the honors will undoubtedly be spread around. |
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bradley PhD Student Posts 1842 |
03-08-22 11:35 AM - Post#338423
You have accurately defined the principle, participation trophy award, behind IvyMadness but at least it is a partial participation award, 4 out 8 vs. 8 out of teams -- although it will probably morph into 8 out of 8 in the near future. When a 16 seed team wins ivyMadness plays a Gonzaga type team, it will be a reality check but nothing will change due to the underlying principles of IvyMadness. |
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Tiger84 Senior Posts 380 |
03-08-22 01:06 PM - Post#338426
The possessions estimate the Columbia Spectator used should use a slightly different formula, to account for the fact that the women's game no longer has 1-and-1s. I also question whether the Tiger starters will see materially different minutes. Coach Berube likes to give players breathers on one side or the other of the end of the first and third quarters, to allow for extended rest and fresher legs. If the Harvard game is a blowout then maybe she empties the bench at 4 minutes rather than 2 minutes left. Connolly, Nweke and Plank will get their minutes, and maybe Weger if Carla sees a matchup she can exploit, but unless there's foul trouble don't expect anything more than that. |
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Tiger84 Senior Posts 380 |
03-08-22 01:36 PM - Post#338429
3 teammates first team can happen. When the Tigers went 30-0, Dietrick, Wheatley and Tarakchian were all first team--and deservedly so. |
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T.P.F.K.A.D.W. PhD Student Posts 1173 |
03-08-22 04:00 PM - Post#338441
Apropos of nothing, I can't help but here Mick Jagger's voice when I read the name Berube. Berube! (Shattered. Shattered.) |
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iogyhufi Masters Student Posts 681 |
03-08-22 04:06 PM - Post#338442
Results are in! https://brownbears.com/news/2022/3/8/mens-ba sketba... PLAYER OF THE YEAR *Tosan Evbuomwan, Princeton (Jr., F – Newcastle, England) DEFENSIVE PLAYER OF THE YEAR Jaylan Gainey, Brown (Sr., F – Greensboro, N.C.) ROOKIE OF THE YEAR Kino Lilly Jr., Brown (Fr., G – Glenn Dale, Md.) COACH OF THE YEAR Brian Earl, Cornell FIRST TEAM ALL-IVY *Noah Kirkwood, Harvard (Sr., G – Ottawa, Ontario) *Jordan Dingle, Penn (Sr., G – Valley Stream, N.Y.) *Tosan Evbuomwan, Princeton (Jr., F – Newcastle, England) *Azar Swain, Yale (Sr., G – Brockton, Mass.) Jaelin Llewellyn, Princeton (Sr., G – Mississauga, Ontario) SECOND TEAM ALL-IVY^ Tamenang Choh, Brown (Gr., F – Lowell, Mass.) Jalen Gabbidon, Yale (Sr., G – Harrisburg, Pa.) Ethan Wright, Princeton (Sr., G – Newton Centre, Mass.) Brendan Barry, Dartmouth (5th., G – Fair Haven, N.J.) Jaylan Gainey, Brown (Sr., F – Greensboro, N.C.) Dean Noll, Cornell (Sr., G – Medford, N.J.) HONORABLE MENTION Aaryn Rai, Dartmouth (5th, F – Markham, Ontario) |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32854 |
03-08-22 04:10 PM - Post#338445
While I think Henderson should have been COY, I guess if you only have an extra guy added to the 2nd team All Ivy, it's the coach who got you there. Congrats to the winners. I like the first team a lot--would be fun to see them take on some other conference all star teams. |
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ToothlessTiger Senior Posts 337 |
03-08-22 04:35 PM - Post#338452
Henderson did as good a job this year as he did in 2017. 12-2 was a remarkable accomplishment. He deserves to be COY as much as he did when he went 14-0. Happy for Brian Earl of course. He plays a bad hand as well as one can. |
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iogyhufi Masters Student Posts 681 |
03-08-22 05:02 PM - Post#338460
You have to give it to Brian Earl - he's the coach of the only team to split with both Yale and Princeton this year, and both of those came at times when Cornell was particularly in need. Plus, as P38 noted, his cup was hardly running over with top-end talent this year. Henderson did a fine job, but he also did so with a lot of experienced, talented senior leadership. Earl had to throw this together on the fly, and he managed to hang blow for blow with every other team in the league. He's earned it. |
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Bryan Junior Posts 233 |
03-08-22 06:31 PM - Post#338467
It's really sloppy for the announcement to show Dingle as a senior rather than a sophomore. |
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gokinsmen Postdoc Posts 3676 |
03-08-22 06:41 PM - Post#338469
Thrilled to see Tosan win POY as a junior/covid soph and unanimously to boot. Brian is totally deserving of COY given what he managed to pull off. I'm legit terrified of Saturday's game. Brown well repped with ROY and a pair of 2nd-teamers. Columbia absent this year, though Nweke probably makes 2nd team if he didn't get injured transfer. EDIT: Didn't realize he entered the transfer portal. |
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ToothlessTiger Senior Posts 337 |
03-08-22 06:48 PM - Post#338470
Brian Earl has done a tremendous job. Should not penalize Henderson because he had talented and experienced seniors. He also had a junior POY. He recruited them and coached them. He is the COY. His kids are not ready for an upset Saturday. |
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TigerFan PhD Student Posts 1892 |
03-08-22 06:55 PM - Post#338471
I think Mitch deserved COY. The fact that he kept the team together, kept them healthy and motivated and improving through the last TWO years should not be held against him, as some seem to be suggesting here, it’s the reason he deserved the award! Who thought Tosan would emerge as the dominant player he was this year? You have to give Mitch some of the credit for that (and the improvement of ALL of the other players around him). Earl did a really nice job with limited talent. But his team went 7-7. They lost 7 games, including some real stinkers. I agree with whoever suggested that the only reason Earl won the award was the sense that Cornell had to get something because they made it to the thingy at the end of the real season. In my book, that’s evidence that the thingy is degrading the league, not enhancing it. |
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TigerFan PhD Student Posts 1892 |
03-08-22 06:56 PM - Post#338472
Looks like Toothless and I were posting much the same sentiment at the same time. |
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bradley PhD Student Posts 1842 |
03-08-22 07:03 PM - Post#338473
Selections are fine although I thought that Wright would get the slight edge over Jaelin based on his overall play, especially rebounding plus Ethan played all 14 games. In one game, especially a Power 5 team, I would select Jaelin over Wright based on his unique ability to get off a shot against top flight defenders. The one common characteristic that I noted between 1st team and 2nd team is that the 1st team players are the premier one on one players in the league. They can all get off a shot, a good one, when needed. Maybe, I got it wrong but that seemed to be the consistent skill set amongst the first teamers. The selection of Tosan makes a lot of sense based on the Tigers winning the IL crown and Tosan being the focal point. |
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gokinsmen Postdoc Posts 3676 |
03-08-22 07:07 PM - Post#338474
Even though recruiting and development are core areas of coaching, COY strikes me as a season-specific honor. For the record, I would have voted for Mitch. I just can't complain about Brian winning - there can be more than one deserving candidate. |
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Penndemonium PhD Student Posts 1900 |
03-08-22 07:13 PM - Post#338475
Both Mitch H and Brian E did such a good job that neither should have felt entitled to the award. I'm just sorry that an ex-tiger had to win it either way. 
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iogyhufi Masters Student Posts 681 |
03-08-22 07:40 PM - Post#338476
Well, by this logic, the COY award should always go to the coach of the first-place team (it usually does, and maybe it should, but then it seems like there's little to discuss). But even aside from that, Earl is trying to build a program at a school where success is an aberration rather than the norm, and Henderson is at a school where success is expected year in and year out. Plus the coaches are the ones who vote on these awards, and they all seemed to think Earl was more deserving than Henderson. Which says a lot, I think. |
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TigerFan PhD Student Posts 1892 |
03-08-22 07:46 PM - Post#338477
Your last point is a good one—Brian got the nod from his peers and that is certainly meaningful. I do think that this is a special year, though, because coaches had to carry their team through the lonely COVID misery of 2020-21 so winning the crown this year is reflective of two years of particularly strong leadership. |
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Tiger81 Masters Student Posts 412
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03-08-22 07:46 PM - Post#338478
Hard to understand how Mitch did not win COY, Brian did a great job getting Cornell to 4th place but that is not award-worthy. Other selections make sense. I think Friberg deserved HM but cannot argue with how this shook out. In last week’s Ivy Hoops Hour podcast Sydney Johnson talked about how Jaelin had a gleam in his eye the last several weeks of the season. He is a dangerous player when his is “on” and I think that is what got him on the 1st Team, hoping he brings that intensity with him to the ILT. |
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1LotteryPick1969 Postdoc Posts 2277 
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03-08-22 08:52 PM - Post#338479
I think Friberg deserved HM but cannot argue with how this shook out. Agreed. His deadly shooting especially from the corner carried the team at times. |
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SomeGuy Professor Posts 6413 |
03-08-22 10:40 PM - Post#338485
I actually would put Donahue ahead of Henderson for COY this year, too. It may be that Henderson made it look too easy. Despite what the preseason poll said, Henderson managed to look like he had the team that should win it all. Yes, he should get credit for recruiting and developing the team he did, but in the end it looked like he had the best team — if anything the season felt like maybe Princeton should have won by more than they did. That’s not to say Henderson isn’t deserving too. The league has a bunch of very good coaches right now. I’d just go with Earl and Donahue this year. Earl for exceeding any reasonable expectation, and Donahue for exceeding what anyone thought Penn could do after the OOC season. |
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SRP Postdoc Posts 4915 |
03-08-22 10:52 PM - Post#338486
I generally don't care about these awards, but it is nutty to play down how intentional the development of this PU team has been. We all know MH is an analytics guy and he has taken it to an extreme with this group, from the avoidance of fouling and of taking tough twos, to the emphasis on defensive rebounding in the man-to-man setup, to the selection of a bunch of deadly outside shooters for PT rather than looking for more defensive athleticism, to the higher pace allowing those shooters to converge to their mean more often. I haven't always loved all of that, especially how the defense has looked, but the success of this formula and set of tradeoffs, almost in textbook form, can't be denied. |
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bradley PhD Student Posts 1842 |
03-08-22 11:55 PM - Post#338489
Also, Julia Cunningham is the defensive player of the year. She's become the reincarnation of Will Venable. Unless it's Ellie Mitchell. Her worth on the defensive end can't be put into stats. On the Berube/Price podcast, Julia Cunningham was a guest. Julia stated that Carla may not have even recruited her because she was not a good defensive player and not particularly interested in playing defense. Carla stated that Julia was not a great defender in year one but Julia worked hard during the off year to improve her lateral quickness and she committed to learn everything that she could about Berube's defense. Carla acknowledged that she now the best perimeter defender on the Tigers. I have no doubt that Carla sets extremely high expectations as to playing defense. Her entire philosophy is built on the principle that great defense gives you a chance in every single game. Players have obviously bought in. Julia, like Myers, like Stone would like to play basketball overseas after graduation. |
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Tiger84 Senior Posts 380 |
03-09-22 12:02 AM - Post#338492
Pretty sure that "Honorable Mention" in the PoY voting simply means "Also receiving votes". Coaches select 5 first team and 5 second team names, anyone in the top 10+ties gets put on an all-ivy team and HM is anyone left. |
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Vonsid Sophomore Posts 146 |
03-09-22 01:22 AM - Post#338493
There is no doubt MH should of won COY. It is appalling that a coach who goes 7 and 7 and barely makes the tournament wins COY. Dartmouth, Harvard, or Brown could of been Cornell. This is the issue with Ivy - give out a feel good award with a teddy bear to a mediocre team because "we want to be balanced and fair" instead of recognizing that MH just simply out recruited and out coached everyone. I hope Princeton and MH prove everyone in this tournament that he deserved it. If another team goes to the tournament it'll be another Ivy League blunder just like this one. |
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SomeGuy Professor Posts 6413 |
03-09-22 07:35 AM - Post#338494
Some of this is how you define coaching. In preferring Earl for this year, I am viewing it kind of the way Bum Phillips once described Don Shula. What happens if the coaches simply switched teams and ran it back? Earl gave the impression of that he took a team that had limited talent and experience and got it to play better than reasonably imaginable. I’m not at all surprised that Columbia finished in the bottom 10 or so teams in division one. I thought Cornell would be there too. Instead, Earl took a team that was at the bottom of division one in both experience and talent, and got them to play at a highly competitive level. It is the most surprising thing that happened in our league this year. |
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SomeGuy Professor Posts 6413 |
03-09-22 07:38 AM - Post#338495
Who do you think Mitch voted for? |
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Go Green PhD Student Posts 1149 |
03-09-22 08:23 AM - Post#338496
When a 16 seed team wins ivyMadness plays a Gonzaga type team, it will be a reality check but nothing will change due to the underlying principles of IvyMadness. That means that the Ivy 16 seed has won the "first four" game and garnered a big NCAA check for the league. Sounds good to me! |
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ToothlessTiger Senior Posts 337 |
03-09-22 09:34 AM - Post#338498
I view the pick of Donahue as COY as hopelessly flawed. If we are using NFL coaching references the one that comes to mind is Johnny Unitas on Don Shula: "I wouldn't cross the street to urinate on him if he was on fire." |
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ToothlessTiger Senior Posts 337 |
03-09-22 09:34 AM - Post#338499
The editor got me. He did not say urinate |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32854 |
03-09-22 10:59 AM - Post#338505
While I would have given the COY to Henderson also, it's because that to me, there should be a presumption that the winning team's coach gets the COY absent something far more compelling than a Cornell team going 7-7 in the league. However, I don't think he necessarily outrecruited and outcoached the league--he had a remarkably healthy group of seniors--which is what wins in this League. They primarily were better one on one players and were more experienced than the opposition, which suffered heavy losses from the missed year, Covid and injuries. I imagine Yale would have finished first had it not lost Atkinson (and/or had Bruner sat out a year and played for Yale). Congrats to Henderson and Princeton, but the real recruiting and coaching test for Princeton will be next year, which it will be Tosan and a bunch of unknowns. We'll get to that after the Ivy and March Madness. |
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ToothlessTiger Senior Posts 337 |
03-09-22 11:15 AM - Post#338509
Schwieger and Derosiers were losses as well who might have made the Tigers better. |
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SomeGuy Professor Posts 6413 |
03-09-22 11:16 AM - Post#338510
Why do you hate Steve Donahue? |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32854 |
03-09-22 11:19 AM - Post#338511
As good as Atkinson and Bruner? And of course, Harvard had pretty much everyone break down over their past 4 seasons. No one out-recruits Amaker. |
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1LotteryPick1969 Postdoc Posts 2277
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03-09-22 11:29 AM - Post#338512
"I wouldn't cross the street to urinate on him if he was on fire." Actually, "down his throat", not "on him". I was shocked by this quotation, as I once had the opportunity to sit and talk with Johny U and Brooks Robinson together. I thought both to be true old school gentlemen, but the quotation is in fact correct (sorry I doubted you), and apparantly there was no love lost between Unitas and Don Shula. |
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iogyhufi Masters Student Posts 681 |
03-09-22 11:44 AM - Post#338514
Yeah, Atkinson was HM All-ACC (and truly, he could've been more if Mike Brey had been forced to use him properly earlier in the season instead of letting his chump guards shoot 20 shots per game each) and Bruner was a starter for a top-ten team, whereas Desrosiers was HM All-Big West and Schwieger came off the bench for Loyola Chicago. No offense to those two, but there's really no comparison there. |
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SomeGuy Professor Posts 6413 |
03-09-22 11:46 AM - Post#338515
I don’t think Nweke entering the transfer portal is indicative of much of anything. I assume a lot of seniors (including some of Princeton’s) will do so. They all have another year of eligibility (at least). Those who want to keep playing will be able to find a place to do so. |
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Old Bear Postdoc Posts 4000 |
03-09-22 01:32 PM - Post#338525
I suspect that Gainey will be transferring as well. |
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ToothlessTiger Senior Posts 337 |
03-09-22 03:05 PM - Post#338548
Do not hate SD. I just do not think he is in the COY conversation rhis year. Actually I think he is an excellent coach |
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SomeGuy Professor Posts 6413 |
03-09-22 04:24 PM - Post#338563
Ok. I guess I misunderstood the meaning of the Unitas/Shula quote. And for the record, I will reiterate that I think Henderson is a tremendous coach — and has out-coached Donahue in 6 straight head-to-heads. So when I say I go Earl, Donahue, Henderson for this year, I am just ranking coaches that I think are all deserving in various ways. Lots of arguments to be made in all directions. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32854 |
03-09-22 04:31 PM - Post#338566
Donahue clearly lost out in the last 3 games. Had Penn tied for the championship, he likely would have won. |
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Tiger81 Masters Student Posts 412
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03-09-22 05:04 PM - Post#338572
2022 All-Ivy Women’s Basketball PLAYER OF THE YEAR *Abby Meyers, Princeton (Sr., G — Potomac, Md.) DEFENSIVE PLAYER OF THE YEAR Ellie Mitchell, Princeton (So., F — Chevy Chase, Md.) ROOKIE OF THE YEAR Harmoni Turner, Harvard (Fr., G — Mansfield, Texas) COACH OF THE YEAR Carla Berube, Princeton FIRST TEAM ALL-IVY *Abby Meyers, Princeton (Sr., G — Potomac, Md.) *Camilla Emsbo, Yale (Jr., F — Lakewood, Colo.) Kaitlyn Davis, Columbia (Jr., G/F — Conn.) Julia Cunningham, Princeton (Jr., G — Watchung, N.J.) Kayla Padilla, Penn (Jr., G — Torrance, Calif.) SECOND TEAM ALL-IVY Abbey Hsu, Columbia (So., G — Parkland, Fla.) Harmoni Turner, Harvard (Fr., G — Mansfield, Texas) McKenzie Forbes, Harvard (Jr., G — Folsom, Calif.) Jenna Clark, Yale (So., G — Pittsburgh, Pa.) Jordan Obi, Penn (So., F — Cupertino, Calif.) HONORABLE MENTION Grace Stone, Princeton (Jr., G — Glen Cove, N.Y.) Theresa Grace Mbanefo, Cornell (Sr., F — Otsego, Minn.) Lola Mullaney, Harvard (So., G — Colts Neck, N.J.) |
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Tiger81 Masters Student Posts 412
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03-09-22 05:09 PM - Post#338573
Ellie Mitchell is the best defensive player (and rebounder) in the league but does not even merit HM All-Ivy? In any case, congrats to all of the honorees! |
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rbg Postdoc Posts 3059 |
03-09-22 05:42 PM - Post#338578
I had Mitchell as #2 for DPOY and listed her for HM, but I would probably take her over every other player if I was starting a team. She has a Rodman-like knack for getting rebounds. I went with Hsu over Padilla for 1st team, mostly because of the Lions overall success. I think Padilla continues to be a great scorer and improved in her ability to get the ball to others. However, I dropped her to second team because of the early season suspension and Penn not making the tournament. I thought MH would get the COY honors on the men's side, but I am really glad to see Brian Earl get the nod. I think he's the most underrated coach in the league and it's about time he got the recognition. I don't know if it's in his best interest, but I hope he sticks around Cornell for a long time. No matter my personal reasoning and choices, the league's results are totally understandable and appropriate. Congratulations to all those on both lists. |
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bradley PhD Student Posts 1842 |
03-09-22 06:50 PM - Post#338588
Good analogy as to Mitchell's style of play being Rodman like. I am not sure if I would pick Myers or Mitchell as the 1st player in a pick up game but it is tough for some to pick Mitchell as 1st or 2nd team based on stats. A great reason as to why stats can be deceiving for sure. If someone watched all IL games, Mitchell would have been a 1st or possibly 2nd team player. Berube defensive coaching skills might also distort the selection process. Choosing Padilla or Hsu is like selecting Jaelin or Wright -- could have gone either way. I would have given the slight edge to Padilla as Hsu disappeared against the Tigers. Padilla is a more dangerous player with her ball handling and passer skills. But overall, the coaches did a good job on the men and women selections. Several teams will have most of their players back next year and I would anticipate that the Ivy women's conference will be stronger next year. |
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SecS3 Junior Posts 246 |
03-09-22 10:23 PM - Post#338606
I think that neither Mitchell or Chen being at least HM is a joke. Are you telling me the coaches in this league really believe that Mullaney and Mbanefo are better players? If so, then it's no wonder no one can beat Princeton 'cause they don't know talent when it beats them. |
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penn nation Professor Posts 21237 |
03-09-22 11:04 PM - Post#338616
Eh, that logic doesn't necessarily hold. If you only looked at the men's honors you'd think that Brown would have made the ILT instead of tying for 6th. |
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SecS3 Junior Posts 246 |
03-10-22 12:09 AM - Post#338629
Ummm...What logic is that? |
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Tiger81 Masters Student Posts 412
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03-10-22 10:01 AM - Post#338638
SecS3 - I’m with you, seems like the WBB coaches were trying to spread as much recognition as possible without necessarily picking the actual highest-impact performers over the past season. It is not credible that Mitchell and Chen were not included at least as HM. Four other sophs and a freshman were honored so the “wait your turn” rationalization does not apply here. In his weekly “Make Shots” podcast Coach Henderson said he was disappointed that Ethan Wright did not make first team MBB All-Ivy. Placing 3 Tigers on the first team in a closely-contested season would have been a stretch. Not so, however, for Coach Berube’s squad, which dominated the Ivies this year. |
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ToothlessTiger Senior Posts 337 |
03-10-22 11:55 AM - Post#338653
I did watch every Tiger game for the men and the women. Ellie Mitchell was clearly the best defensive player on a team that won every game by double digit and had more than 30 single digit yields. She was statistically the best rebounder in the league. How one could vote for her as DPOY but not place her among the 10 all-Ivy players is unfathomable. Chen will be a first teamer soon. |
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ToothlessTiger Senior Posts 337 |
03-10-22 11:56 AM - Post#338654
Single digit yields in quarters. |
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Tiger84 Senior Posts 380 |
03-10-22 12:46 PM - Post#338662
Is it possible that each team was limited to three nominees for POY, and that Coach Berube decided to get all five of her starters on one ballot or another, by nominating Ellie for DPOY and Kaitlyn for ROY? If so, this all makes sense...but Chen was going to have a hard time beating Turner for RoY and probably would have gotten more votes than Stone if nominated. |
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scoop85 Freshman Posts 64 |
03-10-22 02:10 PM - Post#338668
While both Earl and Henderson should have been in the conversation for COY, I think Earl was the best choice based on this criteria: before the season would anyone here have been too surprised that Princeton was 1st in the regular season? On the other hand, no one picked Cornell to make the ILT, having no returning starters from a team that finished in the bottom half in 2020. So for me the COY is the one who’s team truly surpassed expectations, and based on that Earl is the clear choice. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32854 |
03-10-22 02:19 PM - Post#338669
I agree he did a great job. But 7-7 just gets in because Harvard and Brown underachieved. |
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TigerFan PhD Student Posts 1892 |
03-10-22 04:40 PM - Post#338676
Princeton was picked to finish third in the pre-season poll and finished first. Cornell was picked to finish 7th and finished fourth. Negligible difference in terms of beating expectations, if that is your thing. COY for a mediocre 7-7 league record just doesn’t sit right with me. Mitch deserved it. |
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penn nation Professor Posts 21237 |
03-10-22 04:56 PM - Post#338683
Cornell earned their way to the ILT by winning against the top two teams in the league. Gotta be Earl given his team versus Princeton that had a whole upperclass bunch who had already played together. |
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SomeGuy Professor Posts 6413 |
03-10-22 05:39 PM - Post#338688
The difference is greater than that. Princeton basically finished within the range of where one would expect. Their Pomeroy rating would have them in 3rd place a lot of years. This year it was enough to win. But you could argue that Yale and Harvard were just below expectations. Cornell, on the other hand, looked like a 350ish team (like Columbia). Instead, they turned out to be a top 200 team. That is a massive difference. |
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PennFan10 Postdoc Posts 3589 |
03-10-22 07:10 PM - Post#338693
You guys are all making up criteria that literally are not part of any metric to determine coach of the year. There are 8 coaches who vote and they all determine subjectively who they think it should be. The one with the most votes wins. It’s not specifically KP, who beat who, or performance vs expectations, it’s part of all of these or whatever each coach thinks is important. Shoot, it may even have been that Mitch asked everyone to vote for his former protege. We don’t know. I would have voted for Mitch as 12-2 is hard to do and he was 4-2 against the ILT teams (Cornell was 2-4) |
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penn nation Professor Posts 21237 |
03-10-22 08:09 PM - Post#338695
I would have voted for Mitch as 12-2 is hard to do and he was 4-2 against the ILT teams (Cornell was 2-4) Cornell was picked to finish 7th. |
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bradley PhD Student Posts 1842 |
03-10-22 08:52 PM - Post#338697
Good point. Brian and Mitch are good friends and perhaps, Mitch may have lobbied for Brian. After Sydney left, a number of players lobbied for Earl but he was pretty young. Mitch winds up with the job and keeps Brian on his staff. The rest is history. |
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bradley PhD Student Posts 1842 |
03-10-22 08:54 PM - Post#338698
Good point. Brian and Mitch are good friends and perhaps, Mitch may have lobbied for Brian. After Sydney left, a number of players lobbied for Earl but he was pretty young. Mitch winds up with the job and keeps Brian on his staff. The rest is history. |
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Tiger81 Masters Student Posts 412
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03-11-22 03:20 PM - Post#338728
IHO has published its Ivy honors … https://ivyhoopsonline.com/ MBB was very similar to the coaches’ voting, except Jaelin and Ethan were switched, Dean Noll was not included, there were no HMs, and Mitch and Brian shared COY. All of those adjustments worked for me. Tiger fans, however, will be flummoxed by the WBB honors. Meyers 1st team (and POY), Cunningham 2nd team, and … that’s it. No COY for Berube or DPOY for Mitchell. In a year where Princeton thoroughly dominated the league, the top 5 teams were equally represented on both the first and second teams. If Princeton’s talent was at such parity you would think that would at least result in COY recognition but apparently not. |
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1LotteryPick1969 Postdoc Posts 2277
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03-14-22 07:28 PM - Post#339195
And is picking the Tigers for third (at best) next year. |
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Tiger84 Senior Posts 380 |
03-15-22 11:49 AM - Post#339256
Third seems reasonable expectation for the Tigers. The only rotation players coming back are Evbuomwan, Langborg and Allocco. Maybe Jack Scott can contribute from day 1. Maybe Hooks and Martini will be ready to contribute. Maybe Kellman is healthy. Maybe some JV guys like Byriel and Gakwasi emerge. That's a lot of question marks. But as we saw this year, get into the Top 4 and anything can happen. |
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SomeGuy Professor Posts 6413 |
03-15-22 12:03 PM - Post#339258
Wasn’t Garrett Johnson supposed to be an immediate contributor? |
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1LotteryPick1969 Postdoc Posts 2277
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03-15-22 06:50 PM - Post#339271
In the blur of the last two years, I have no recollection. Has he matriculated? |
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SomeGuy Professor Posts 6413 |
03-15-22 06:57 PM - Post#339272
He’s on the website roster. Word was he was practicing in The Fall with the team and would be in the rotation. I think he got hurt, but I’m not positive. |
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ToothlessTiger Senior Posts 337 |
03-15-22 07:30 PM - Post#339282
If Kellman is healthy the Tigers can claw their way back in. |
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LocalTiger Masters Student Posts 435 |
03-16-22 12:55 PM - Post#339372
Princeton may be a very different team next year. IF all are healthy, you could see Kellman, Tosan and Johnson up front with Allocco and Landborg at guards. Scott, Hooks, Martini and Peters may be in the rotation. We will be bigger, more athletic, but not shoot as well. Mitch has seemed to favor small ball, but the talent may dictate otherwise. If you believe Tosan was playing out of position this year, his production is even more remarkable. lots of question marks, but they could be exciting and competitive. |
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PennFan10 Postdoc Posts 3589 |
03-16-22 02:09 PM - Post#339379
Tosan out of position? What position should he be playing? |
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1LotteryPick1969 Postdoc Posts 2277
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03-16-22 04:39 PM - Post#339396
My hope is that MH can find another unheralded star such as Tosan, Richmond, Schwieger, Stephens, Caruso, etc. |
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HARVARDDADGRAD Postdoc Posts 2697 |
03-16-22 04:39 PM - Post#339398
As I mentioned in another thread, Yales' Jones deserves Coach of the Year for 'faciliting' the year off that brought back Swain, Gabiddon and Alausa. Without them, Yale isn't dancing. |
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PennFan10 Postdoc Posts 3589 |
03-16-22 06:02 PM - Post#339403
Alausa hasn’t played much this year but certainly Swain and the Unguardable Gabbidon were critical. |
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LocalTiger Masters Student Posts 435 |
03-16-22 06:44 PM - Post#339405
I think Tosan lacks the bulk of a true center, which showed on defense against some teams. like Maddox, he has the potential to lock down players at the other 4 positions. That was why he started as a freshman before developing his offensive game. |
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weinhauers_ghost Postdoc Posts 2140 |
03-16-22 10:02 PM - Post#339413
Wasn't Alausa injured for the bulk of the season? |
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HARVARDDADGRAD Postdoc Posts 2697 |
03-16-22 10:21 PM - Post#339414
But Yale without Swain and Gabiddon! Of course, Yale with Atkinson in 2020-21 and Swain & Gabiddon as seniors would have dominated. Seriously. Like 14-0 good. Atkinson with 16 points on 8-10 in first half vs Notre Dame in NCAA 11 seed play in game. |
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PennFan10 Postdoc Posts 3589 |
03-17-22 12:11 AM - Post#339418
I think Tosan lacks the bulk of a true center, which showed on defense against some teams. like Maddox, he has the potential to lock down players at the other 4 positions. That was why he started as a freshman before developing his offensive game. Ok. Again, which position would you play him? He can’t shoot so has to have space to get to basket. |
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LocalTiger Masters Student Posts 435 |
03-17-22 08:18 AM - Post#339423
I think he plays the 4 in the Ivies and a wing at the next level. I expect his game will continue to grow, and his range will improve. spacing willl be more difficult next year with fewer shooters, but Kellman and Hooks both showed some post skills in limited time and Tosanfound ways to play with them. |
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TigerFan PhD Student Posts 1892 |
03-17-22 12:47 PM - Post#339441
Princeton may be a very different team next year. IF all are healthy, you could see Kellman, Tosan and Johnson up front with Allocco and Landborg at guards. Scott, Hooks, Martini and Peters may be in the rotation. We will be bigger, more athletic, but not shoot as well. Mitch has seemed to favor small ball, but the talent may dictate otherwise. If you believe Tosan was playing out of position this year, his production is even more remarkable. lots of question marks, but they could be exciting and competitive. Tosan was on the floor with other Tiger bigs early in the season and it seemed to work pretty well. In the double OT loss (ouch!) to Minnesota, for example, Mason Hooks played 15 minutes, scoring 8 pts, and Kellman played 12 minutes, scoring 7. Tosan played 47 (!) minutes, scoring 16. (He took 3 shots from deep, missing all of them.) Martini, another big body, started the game and played 12 minutes. Mitch will have more pieces coming back next year than some people think. And for what it's worth, ESPN lists young Jack Scott as a 4 star recruit. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32854 |
03-17-22 12:52 PM - Post#339442
I think we're going to see a lot of hack-a-Tose next year if he gets more touches, as is likely. |
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LocalTiger Masters Student Posts 435 |
03-17-22 01:04 PM - Post#339443
we will see. It's not that he did not have the ball much this year. I will be surprised if his foul shooting does not improve. But I guess if you can'y guard him, you have to try something. |
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TigerFan PhD Student Posts 1892 |
03-17-22 01:07 PM - Post#339444
Knowing his work ethic, I'd be surprised if he doesn't shoot a ton of free throws during the off season and hit in the mid-60s to 70 percent range next year. |
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PennFan10 Postdoc Posts 3589 |
03-17-22 03:06 PM - Post#339447
So he didn't work on his FT's this year? Would seem strange. A guy who wins a unanimous POY award, which clearly reflects his work ethic and his basketball skill, and then airballs 3 FT in a post season game has more issues with his shooting than just work ethic. |
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1LotteryPick1969 Postdoc Posts 2277
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03-17-22 08:33 PM - Post#339469
Martini, another big body, started the game and played 12 minutes. He is the best three point shooter of the bigs, which should equate to PT, if he can play D. |
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LocalTiger Masters Student Posts 435 |
03-17-22 08:54 PM - Post#339473
He went from a defender to the focus of the offense. no air balls to the VCU game. He will be better next year. It is more than a little sterange to read Penn funds focus on that weakness, while ignoring a UNANIMOUS POY. He is better than Dingle, who the coaches all see as more flawed. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32854 |
03-17-22 09:30 PM - Post#339477
He's a different player---and you are ignoring that sophs just don't win POY. But offensively, Dingle is light years ahead. Anyway, we have plenty of time to see what will happen next year. The objective fact is that Tose shot 56% from the line in a lot of shots--that's an obvious weakness. And he had far more help than Dingle. Next year will be different. |
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Albert08 Masters Student Posts 574 |
03-17-22 09:58 PM - Post#339481
Tosan and Dingle were both freshmen in 2019-2020, and both have only played 2 Ivy seasons. Dingle is a soph because he took a gap year; Tosan is a junior because he did not. So don't argue that Dingle was passed over because, as a "soph" he's more inexperienced, and they don't give POY to sophs. Tosan was the better player in the eyes of those who voted for POY. |
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TigerFan PhD Student Posts 1892 |
03-17-22 10:02 PM - Post#339482
PF is a pest. I imagine Tosan will tinker with his FT technique during the off season, something it wouldn’t be wise to do during the season. |
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SRP Postdoc Posts 4915 |
03-18-22 02:03 AM - Post#339491
Also, if Tosan can develop even just a decent 33% trey game when stationary his ability to drive to the hoop will be greatly enhanced. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32854 |
03-18-22 05:51 AM - Post#339492
The POY award is an objective standard for who is the better player? OK. The objective fact is that Tosan had much better players around him this year. We'll see next year who is the better player when Tosan, as Dingle had to do this year, must do it on his own far more often. |
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1LotteryPick1969 Postdoc Posts 2277
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03-18-22 07:51 AM - Post#339496
And develop a three point shot? |
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LocalTiger Masters Student Posts 435 |
03-18-22 08:09 AM - Post#339501
The POY is the coach's view of who is the most outstanding player. The fact that they unanimously believed that was Tosan is probably of at least equal importance to your perceptive observation that he is not a great free throw shooter. You should probably petition the League to make that a requirement for the award. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32854 |
03-18-22 08:24 AM - Post#339503
Naw, you are simply spouting your opinion as to what a subjective award represents. I think we will see him exposed next year without guys who were Ivy superstars playing next to him. That 56% FT and 11% 3 point shooting will mean teams will back off from him and foul him if he gets to the hoop. Tosan is a really good player. He's not as good as Jordan Dingle. |
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penn nation Professor Posts 21237 |
03-18-22 08:29 AM - Post#339504
They’re both nightmares if you try to defend them one on one without any help. |
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LocalTiger Masters Student Posts 435 |
03-18-22 08:34 AM - Post#339505
The League says POY is most outstanding player. You had previously claimed it was an MVP standard, but you we're (objectively) wrong. Tosan defends better, passes better, rebounds better and makes his teammates better. All eight guys who get paid to judge and develop talent saw that this year. Tosan was better than Dingle. Maybe your guy improves more this Summer, but I doubt it. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32854 |
03-18-22 08:45 AM - Post#339506
Your problem (other than arrogance) is that you continually claim that subjective awards are objective. Perhaps you don't understand the meaning of the word objective. But we all know your opinion and you know mine. We'll see next year just how dominant Tosan is without the seniors Princeton has graduated. |
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LocalTiger Masters Student Posts 435 |
03-18-22 08:53 AM - Post#339507
I did not say it was objective. I said I thought the opinion of 8 professionals probably had more value than yours. You disagree. And that makes me arrogant? Interesting. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32854 |
03-18-22 09:16 AM - Post#339508
You used the word objectively. It's your opinion. It's my opinion. We disagree. Couching your opinion as objective fact is arrogance. But we'll see next year, which is what I said at the start. |
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LocalTiger Masters Student Posts 435 |
03-18-22 09:58 AM - Post#339512
I did not use that word. You have repeatedly declared your opinion (e.g.- Tosan had a better supporting cast, an opinion I may share but clearly an opinion) as objective fact. That is arrogance, as is ignoring the opinion of all the coaches. in fact, this started with your declaration that Penn "has the best player in the League." Pointing out that that opinion was not shared by any of the coaches, even Donahue, is not arrogant. it is just inconvenient to your argument. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32854 |
03-18-22 10:05 AM - Post#339513
4 posts up, but you're veering to troll country, so end of discussion. |
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LocalTiger Masters Student Posts 435 |
03-18-22 10:12 AM - Post#339514
I said you were objectively wrong that the League described POY as an MVP. It says it is the "most outstanding player." I am not saying their voter is objective, but you were wrong about what they were opining about. Now, end of discussion. |
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PennFan10 Postdoc Posts 3589 |
03-18-22 02:50 PM - Post#339526
So, to be clear, MVP of the league regularly goes to the player on the first place team that his coach nominates. Each other coach can nominate a player for the award as well. You aren't nominated for the award unless you are pretty roundly thought of as one of the very best players in the league. I am sure the players at the table were probably: Tosan Dingle Swain Kirkwood Each of those players were unanimous 1st team all Ivy selections. I don't think it's a stretch to say if any one of those teams finished the regular season in solo first place, then that player (listed above) would have likely been a unanimous choice for MVP. There is a chance (like 2 years ago) that there could have been a co-mvp, but that has usually gone to a senior from a non first place team (AJ Brodeur most recently). Unanimous 1st team All Ivy is a much better metric of who the coaches think are the best players than just MVP, which goes to the player on the first place team from that unanimous group. Tosan is an outstanding player and deserving of the award in the way that it is handed out (being the unanimous player from the first place team). It is not an objective determination of who is best among those 4 players. |
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LocalTiger Masters Student Posts 435 |
03-18-22 03:23 PM - Post#339529
I am not sure that narrative is consistent with the facts. Jenkins, Earl,Austin, Barnett, Forte,Hummer and Rosen come to mind as exceptions to the "it always comes from the first place team " rule. Also, if you look art the press releases, they do not generally say the POY (not MVP) was a unanimous choice, although he is generally unanimous first team. I think they are separates votes, and I assume the coaches take both seriously. |
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PennFan10 Postdoc Posts 3589 |
03-18-22 04:49 PM - Post#339538
In the last 12 years the 1st place team had the POY 10 times. The two times it didn't happen were Hummer in 2013 and Rosen in 2012. Both were seniors on the 2nd place team (finishing 1 game out of first). I think it's fair to say that POY almost always goes to the best player on the 1st place team. Giving it to a player other than that is the exception, as you have noted. Again, Tosan is a great player, deserving of the award. I think it's fair to say Swain, Kirkwood or Dingle would have gotten the award if their team finished first THIS year. And that would have been just as deserving. That's not a knock on Tosan. |
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LocalTiger Masters Student Posts 435 |
03-19-22 10:20 AM - Post#339573
I certainly agree that a player on the first place team has an edge, all other things equal. Where were may diner is believing that unanimity for POY is not as meaningful as it is for first team status. Reading the press releases each. year, it seems common that POY is also unanimous first team, but I do not see others announced as unanimous POY. We will probably never know exactly how the balloting is done, but my assumption nis each coach fills out a ballot, and they do not consult about it. If that is so, all of the coaches agreeing this year is significant. |
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PeteD Masters Student Posts 557 
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03-20-22 10:41 PM - Post#339682
I think that neither Mitchell or Chen being at least HM is a joke. Are you telling me the coaches in this league really believe that Mullaney and Mbanefo are better players? If so, then it's no wonder no one can beat Princeton 'cause they don't know talent when it beats them. Agree 100%, especially Chen… who was arguably the best player on the court when Princeton visited Levien. |
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