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dperry Postdoc Posts 2214 
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03-13-22 09:25 PM - Post#339083
Pr-Cr: 1,160 Y-Pa: 1,250 Pr-Y: 1,350 So much for creating interest. Princeton will be better next year, if for no other reason than some students will actually show up, but then the four years after that are Brown, Cornell, Dartmouth, and Columbia. At this point, you'd have to say that the odds approach certainty that at least one of those four will not make the men's cut, and it's probably at least 50-50 that two or more of them won't be present. For that matter, since B, Cr, and D are currently the three worst women's teams, the odds of at least one of those three not making either cut are pretty good. We could be looking at some really embarrassing turnouts in the next few years; the only consolation with that is given the idiotic scheduling, no one will be watching anyway.
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penn nation Professor Posts 21247 |
03-13-22 09:43 PM - Post#339090
Perspective: Official seating capacity is 1,636 (smallest in the IL), and they couldn't even reach that. |
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HARVARDDADGRAD Postdoc Posts 2697 |
03-13-22 10:26 PM - Post#339102
Who is ‘they’? The fans of Penn, Cornell, Princeton and Yale apparently |
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penn nation Professor Posts 21247 |
03-13-22 10:39 PM - Post#339104
Nor the local Harvard/Boston community, where no travel was needed. Attendance for the Princeton-Harvard women's game: 889. "They" is the tourney hosts. That's Harvard. Er, Allston. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32859 |
03-14-22 09:25 AM - Post#339129
Let's face it---it's ridiculous to charge $50/$75 each for a "day-night" Ivy league tournament setup. Play the games at a minimum 5000 seat arena near whichever school has home court that year and charge $35/50 for a doubleheader and people will attend. Moreover, playing the tournament a week later than it should be played at the beginning of Spring Break means you get zero students. It just amazes me how the Ivy League created a concept of Ivy Madness to stoke a Kumbaya vision of Ivy students and alums sitting together and drinking mead by the fire after a day of hard competition among our alma maters and we ended up (as usual for the Ivies) insisting on fairness and equality in having the opportunity to host, which negates everything the Tournament was intended to be. But it's typical. There is no reason this could not have been played at BU, the Yale tournament at Bridgeport or Fairfield and Brown's at the Dunk. Charge less and promote more. Playing at Lavietes at a price no one but an Ivy fanatic will pay and playing on Selection Sunday to get ESPNU is counterproductive. |
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digamma Masters Student Posts 468 |
03-14-22 09:31 AM - Post#339131
First Friday of spring break. Tough to get students to engage. But, point taken. |
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HARVARDDADGRAD Postdoc Posts 2697 |
03-14-22 12:28 PM - Post#339149
To me the attendance confirms the obvious: the tournament is only a destination for most when convenient. Also, students don't attend at the start of their spring break. They likely only attend at the end of spring break and only when on campus. I was clear for years that Penn had the fans only because the location was convenient and because it was held on the weekend that students returned from break (no conflicts, HW, etc.). This weekend seems to have proved my point. Harvard men weren't in the tournment, otherwise Lavietes would have been sold out for the Harvard contests. Imagine if Penn didn't make it in and the cavernous Palestra had 1,200 fans? Holding the tournament in an outlying southern most venue would be exposed for what it was. This could happen at Dartmouth, Ithaca and likely Providence as well in the coming years. Jadwin next year won't be a problem if Princeton and/or Penn make it in. Columbia will benefit from being in NYC with tons of alums. Holding the tournament at the Palestra was deceiving and inequitable. Holding it at a school that doesn't participate is simply foolish. Holding it when students are on break is bad, but is it possible to fix that. I think what we've now experienced proves that the #1 seed should host the tournament. I know there are logistical issues, but are they that difficult or isn't it worth it to deal with them? If you want to diminish the logistical issues, finish the regular season a week earlier - giving fans two weeks to plan to attend. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32859 |
03-14-22 12:52 PM - Post#339150
The Harvard-Yale playoff game at the Palestra was a sellout. The reason the Palestra drew over 5000 for the Ivy Tournament the 2 years it was there is not because of Penn nearly as much as it is the Palestra. It's the only major league arena in the Ivies and its an attraction by itself. Philadelphia is also a much cheaper city to visit than Boston and has tons of hotel rooms. I spent well over $600 this weekend---I don't think that would fly with many fans unless you go back the original idea which was that of an Ivy social event with actual events planned. |
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PennFan10 Postdoc Posts 3589 |
03-14-22 02:57 PM - Post#339167
Imagine if Penn didn't make it in and the cavernous Palestra had 1,200 fans? Holding the tournament in an outlying southern most venue would be exposed for what it was. If it was in the Palestra and Penn wasn't in it, the attendance would be down but it would be a lot more than 1,200. Too many basketball fans around Philly and NY want to see quality games in an historic venue. Also, the many alums in NYC can easily and inexpensively get to the Palestra. It would be over 3,000 easy, which is half capacity. No one wants to watch basketball in a glorified HS gym in Cambridge. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32859 |
03-14-22 03:27 PM - Post#339170
..again, at a much higher price because of the limited number of seats. |
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HARVARDDADGRAD Postdoc Posts 2697 |
03-14-22 04:00 PM - Post#339177
We definitely disagree. Back in 2018 I reported here that it seemed like over 80% of fans for the final were from Penn. It was actually likely higher. I noted that the student section was full on that Sunday, but not Saturday, as Penn's spring break was ending. My family has attended all previous tournaments. The Palestra and Philly was not a destination and isn't a destination for most fans. This is not a knock on your Cathedral, although the mere thought that, all things being equal, fans would watch the same game at Philly/Palestra but not Boston/Lavietes is exemplifies hubris. It's all about the location/distance, not the arena. We attend games at the Palestra the same way we do Jadwin and Levien. If Harvard is playing and the location is convenient we try and go. That's why we don't travel to away games at Cornell and Dartmouth, and likely explains the disappointing attendance at Lavietes by fans of the participants. In 2019, Yale had a strong majority of fans for that final, likely for the same exact reason. For anyone north of NYC, the Palestra is as inconvenient to them as Hanover is to Philly natives. You are missing the obvious confirmation this weekend provided. Penn fans didn't go to Lavietes on Saturday, and not enough Yale and Princeton fans traveled on Sunday. How is that Harvard's fault? It's the largely anti-climactic nature of the tournament. If the game had been at the Palestra but not included Penn or nearby Princeton, that venue would have likely drawn a similar crowd. As this was the first year without a host participant, what we learned this year is that Ivy fans generally don't travel far for this particular event. The arena is irrelevant. The example of Havard vs Yale in a single game playoff at the Palestra supports my view. Same with Harvard vs Princeton at Yale. Fans do travel for the rare single game playoff. Possibly, the uncertainty of surviving the semifinal is a negative. Alternatively, the redundancy and recent vintage of the tournament works against it. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32859 |
03-14-22 04:10 PM - Post#339179
Your last point may be correct---that the special nature of the one-game playoff brought in more fans, but you essentially ignore almost everything else I said. The timing of the tournament, the pricing of the tournament, the lack of any organized Ivy social opportunities (except for VIPs---what a surprise?), are the most important factor--they represent an utter absence of marketing for the Tournament. Without marketing, attendance is going to be bad. But you must be kidding with Lavietes. If you don't think having to buy 2 tickets to see the doubleheader depressed the crowd, and that people won't want to travel to the Palestra for the Palestra--hell, we got far more national attention there because it was the Palestra---is what I have come to expect from Harvard fans, who don't show up for their own games so that the fundraising to build a new 4000 seat building was diverted to other causes. For Harvard, a basketball team is almost like a toy. Who cares if anyone is there? Frankly, the fact that we played the Tournament there was an embarrassment. It's a high school gym--no room to move even behind the bleachers---1 set of water fountains, 2 rest rooms (small ones). I just don't know what Harvard was thinking not building a real arena worthy of the Harvard name. But we can disagree on that to a point--the Ivy Tournament could be a success if they played it a week earlier, brought students and alums up to see it, and actually marketed it to succeed. The problem with the Tournament is that certain schools insisted on "fairness" so that we will play in 6 buildings ill-suited to host a tournament. Better just to play it in rotation at Rutgers, Bridgeport and BU. |
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PennFan10 Postdoc Posts 3589 |
03-14-22 04:13 PM - Post#339181
I would say your viewpoint is accurate...for YOU. I can tell you with certainty many Philly area people go to the Palestra to see games because it's the Palestra. I bet if you counted the sell out from the H v Y playoff there were many of these Philly area attendees. I agree with your general point, it's not about the Arena. The Palestra is different. It has it's own following. That's not hubris, it's simple fact. I have met dozens of people not affiliated with Penn that go to games there just to be in the building. If its a game with NCAA March Madness implications, there will be a strong contingent of those fans. That's just not the case in Cambridge or really anywhere else. Consider this article, which is posted on the NCAA Men's basketball website (from Feb 2021): https://www.ncaa.com/news/basketball-men/a rticle/2... I promise we aren't making this up. |
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penn nation Professor Posts 21247 |
03-14-22 04:25 PM - Post#339183
You are missing the obvious confirmation this weekend provided. Penn fans didn't go to Lavietes on Saturday, and not enough Yale and Princeton fans traveled on Sunday. How is that Harvard's fault? Well, for one thing, it begs the question of why the insistence of rotating the site each year among the 8 teams if only a couple of them are going to attract a crowd. I mean, goodness gracious, Lavietes has the smallest capacity of any Ivy and Harvard couldn't even fill it. As was mentioned earlier, the Palestra got a very nice crowd for tiebreakers and ILT even when Penn wasn't involved. |
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PennFan10 Postdoc Posts 3589 |
03-14-22 04:30 PM - Post#339186
I think we are all missing the bigger point, which is the decision of where to hold the tournament has little to nothing to do with the size or potential size of the crowd. It's about showcasing the IL and the different venues (and probably about fairness as well) |
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penn nation Professor Posts 21247 |
03-14-22 04:33 PM - Post#339187
Showcasing Lavietes? Showing the majority of Ivy venues is actually a problem, not something to brag about. In terms of the fairness (and showcasing) issue, as many have said before, there are any number of other venues such as Bridgeport that would do much more justice to both issues than the current arrangement.
I think we are all missing the bigger point, which is the decision of where to hold the tournament has little to nothing to do with the size or potential size of the crowd. It's about showcasing the IL and the different venues (and probably about fairness as well) |
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PennFan10 Postdoc Posts 3589 |
03-14-22 05:32 PM - Post#339188
No, you missed the point. Showcasing Ivy campuses. The venue doesn't matter on TV. ESPN can make any gym look packed. |
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dperry Postdoc Posts 2214
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03-14-22 11:24 PM - Post#339222
The Harvard-Yale playoff game at the Palestra was a sellout. Attendance was actually 5,256. However, as I've pointed out before, that's still more than all but one day of the tournament so far despite having fewer teams, much less notice, and not being convenient to either team (heck, I think there were more students of both schools at that game than there were for the tournament games in the Palestra.)
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dperry Postdoc Posts 2214
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03-14-22 11:27 PM - Post#339223
No, you missed the point. Showcasing Ivy campuses. The venue doesn't matter on TV. ESPN can make any gym look packed. However, a.) there really isn't much opportunity to do that in the midst of the game, and b.) going up against the big conferences on the final weekend, no one is watching anyway.
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dperry Postdoc Posts 2214
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03-14-22 11:44 PM - Post#339225
Let's face it---it's ridiculous to charge $50/$75 each for a "day-night" Ivy league tournament setup. Play the games at a minimum 5000 seat arena near whichever school has home court that year and charge $35/50 for a doubleheader and people will attend. Moreover, playing the tournament a week later than it should be played at the beginning of Spring Break means you get zero students. It just amazes me how the Ivy League created a concept of Ivy Madness to stoke a Kumbaya vision of Ivy students and alums sitting together and drinking mead by the fire after a day of hard competition among our alma maters and we ended up (as usual for the Ivies) insisting on fairness and equality in having the opportunity to host, which negates everything the Tournament was intended to be. But it's typical. There is no reason this could not have been played at BU, the Yale tournament at Bridgeport or Fairfield and Brown's at the Dunk. Charge less and promote more. Playing at Lavietes at a price no one but an Ivy fanatic will pay and playing on Selection Sunday to get ESPNU is counterproductive. The problem with all of this, however, is that to make a neutral site successful and to create a collective league atmosphere (even assuming the latter is even doable--as far as I can tell, only the HBCU conferences really try for it), requires hard work, marketing skill, and money. I see no evidence that the Ivies have any desire to expend any such effort or resources on this, or that they have the talent in marketing required. They talk a great game, but they are not putting any money (literally or figuratively) where their mouths are. With respect to students, while competing with spring break doesn't help, I'm pretty sure that you're never going to have significant numbers of students coming from the teams that aren't home. There aren't that many students right now who are even that interested, and many of the ones who are can't afford it. If you're concerned about fading student interest, and there is very good reason to be concerned, devaluing the regular season games that are actually easy for them to attend is a bad idea.
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TigerFan PhD Student Posts 1892 |
03-15-22 10:43 AM - Post#339246
I went to both games at the Palestra in 2017 and the one-game playoff at Yale in 2011 because I could drive to the games and get back home that day. I’ve also seen the Tigers play in the NCAA tournament at 9 times and was ready to spend more money than would have been reasonable to see them in the big tournament this year. My decision not to travel to Cambridge was a rational one: 1) I didn’t want to spend a lot of money on the trip knowing I was planning to travel to the NCAA tournament if the Tigers won, 2) I thought it wise for my mental health and that of those around me to avoid the misery and fury at the ILT if the Tigers didn’t prevail. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32859 |
03-15-22 10:47 AM - Post#339247
Like other tournaments, it would be more of an alumni event, but by scheduling it during Spring Break, you are making certain that virtually none will be there. With Princeton having changed its finals to prior to the New Year, there is absolutely no reason the Ivies have to go until Selection Sunday. But there are six Ivy business schools--some of the best in the nation. If we cannot market a tournament using some of that expertise, who can? |
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Stuart Suss PhD Student Posts 1439 |
03-15-22 11:22 AM - Post#339250
Palestra 38 wrote: <<With Princeton having changed its finals to prior to the New Year, there is absolutely no reason the Ivies have to go until Selection Sunday.>> Unfortunately, there is one big reason (or many big rea$on$). As was explained to me: When the Ivy League revised its schedule this year, there were two versions. One had six single game weekends, the MLK Saturday/Monday weekend and three traditional back to back weekends with the traditional travel partners. That schedule, with the Ivy tournament on Selection Sunday weekend, was the one which was adopted. There was an alternative schedule. It would have consisted of four single game weekends, the MLK Saturday/Monday weekend, and four traditional back to back weekends. The regular season would have ended one week earlier, and the tournament would have been one week earlier. ESPN informed the Ivy League that the league could hold its tournament whenever it chose to do so. However, if the tournament were not held on Selection Sunday weekend, ESPN would not televise it. Guess who prevailed? |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32859 |
03-15-22 11:42 AM - Post#339254
Who gives a damn? No one is really watching it on TV anyway, and we can get another cable network (CBS, FX Sports, NBC Sportsnet) to broadcast it. The Tournament's problems are largely due to playing it against the finals of major conferences and on Spring Break. |
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penn nation Professor Posts 21247 |
03-15-22 11:45 AM - Post#339255
It's not just the tourney. How many times in recent years has a Penn-Princeton game been during someone's break? If you want to get student interest back at Penn, at least schedule these kinds of games when there are students around. |
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PennFan10 Postdoc Posts 3589 |
03-15-22 01:21 PM - Post#339261
Who gives a damn? No one is really watching it on TV anyway, and we can get another cable network (CBS, FX Sports, NBC Sportsnet) to broadcast it. You obviously don't care but the decision makers clearly did. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32859 |
03-15-22 01:22 PM - Post#339262
Not necessarily that they "cared" but just went with the path of least resistance---which is what the Ivies typically do. |
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HARVARDDADGRAD Postdoc Posts 2697 |
03-15-22 01:48 PM - Post#339264
So, we chose to hold the games when they could be televised on ESPN and at a time when none of the student bodies are on campus. And we wonder why attendance is low and we all watch on ESPN? We also make it so the 4 sets of fans have to travel. This is compounded by the fact that if you do travel it could well be (50% chance) for a single (disappointing) game on Saturday? Of course, that's endemic to any single elimination tournament. Even the early ACC games at the Barclays Center are barely attended. A few years ago I had the option of courtside tix to watch Pitt play for $25. Also, a northern city in early March isn't much of a gathering. Finally, keep in mind that we're the diehards! Very few others are. If you want students, and want to make the regular season meaningful, let the #1 seed host the tournament. It's equitable, adds meaning to the season, and everyone still has a chance to host. I'm sure the putative host will be able to figure out how to keep its arena available and ticketing can all be digital. As for hotels, it seems that most fans either live locally or only come for a day trip. Others can always drive to the suburbs where the business hotels are plentiful and cheap. In many years, with the new schedule and only one final game on the last weekend, the top seed will be known two weeks in advance. If the host school has a gym that's too small, then that's gives that school a reason to build/expand. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32859 |
03-15-22 01:51 PM - Post#339265
I have no problem with that other than for your last sentence. If both Harvard and Columbia, after having raised boatloads of money, wouldn't build new reasonably sized arenas (although my daughter is at the Columbia Business School new campus right where I said they should have built the arena 15 years ago so I shouldn't complain), they never will. So my suggestion is that sure, home team gets to "host" but minimum 5000 seats. However they can do it. |
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SRP Postdoc Posts 4917 |
03-15-22 07:59 PM - Post#339295
The folly is inherently flawed, for all the reasons I and others have said ad nauseum, but one minor thing would at least be complementary to ESPN's insistence on holding it the weekend of Selection Sunday: Hold the first round on Thursday or Friday and the finals on Saturday. That way, someone outside the IL might actually watch the games and pay attention, as that is the day when all the conferences' results are eagerly awaited by the bracketology nuts. |
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HARVARDDADGRAD Postdoc Posts 2697 |
03-15-22 10:39 PM - Post#339344
I think there are more games clogging the airwaves on Friday. Large conference semifinals. Noon on Friday do it? |
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Go Green PhD Student Posts 1149 |
03-16-22 07:17 AM - Post#339350
If you want students, and want to make the regular season meaningful, let the #1 seed host the tournament. You are aware why this doesn't happen, right? I, mean, it's been pointed out well over dozens of times... |
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HARVARDDADGRAD Postdoc Posts 2697 |
03-16-22 12:25 PM - Post#339368
I know there has been a lot written on it. I'll go back and look. I know there's a men's vs women's issue - they want to keep things together. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32859 |
03-16-22 12:40 PM - Post#339369
Of course, with tiny arenas requiring split admissions and no planned social activities, what exactly is the cross-over of the fans of the men's and women's tournaments? Can't be more than 100. |
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Old Bear Postdoc Posts 4002 |
03-16-22 12:55 PM - Post#339373
I really don’t think the league is all that concerned about attendance. Fact I don’t think they’re much concerned about tha “fans”. Their first priority are the players and the teams. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32859 |
03-16-22 01:37 PM - Post#339377
What advantage is there for the players that the 2 tournaments be played in the same place? In a compressed tournament like this, they are going to play, eat and sleep. If the aim is to act in the interest of the players, what is the advantage of doing it the way we are doing? |
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LocalTiger Masters Student Posts 435 |
03-16-22 01:54 PM - Post#339378
the Princeton men attended the Women's semi, and thew players commented on how important that was to them. |
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HARVARDDADGRAD Postdoc Posts 2697 |
03-16-22 02:17 PM - Post#339381
I assume Power conferences separate the tournaments. Why not hold them in separate locations like I assume we do for other sports. |
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PennFan10 Postdoc Posts 3589 |
03-16-22 02:21 PM - Post#339382
Here is an interview with Robin Harris from 2019 that "tries to explain" some of the rationale for rotating venues: https://www.inquirer.com/college-sports/ivy-le ague... Some of the quotes include: "What a wonderful opportunity, to be able to bring this terrific event to each campus community and have the local fans that support their teams at the school throughout the year have a chance to attend. And for fans that travel, to get to our campuses." Is the small capacity of some Ivy venues a concern for you? "We have to pay attention to capacity, and we have to make sure that we give our most ardent fans the opportunity to attend. All the venues can do that. We’re going to have terrific environments for our student-athletes who are playing, because we’re going to have packed venues everywhere we go. The Palestra was a great environment, the way the sound reverberates, for the men and the women. At the smaller venues, we’ll pack them" "During the past several years, we’ve looked at a number of neutral facilities. That’s been part of the process throughout. There’s a couple of issues. One, it’s very costly. It’s much more cost-effective to be in one of our campus venues. The second piece is the atmosphere at neutral venues. Some conferences choose to go to neutral venues. Obviously all of the so-called “Power 6” conferences are at neutral venues, and sometimes their crowds are just not that great, and the atmosphere’s not that great, frankly." "The tournaments were never about generating revenue. We want to cover our costs, and operate them in a cost-effective way, and we want to make sure ticket prices remain accessible to our fans." |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32859 |
03-16-22 03:28 PM - Post#339385
"The tournaments were never about generating revenue. We want to cover our costs, and operate them in a cost-effective way, and we want to make sure ticket prices remain accessible to our fans." (1) They are about not losing money (2) They will not lose money (3) And if we have to gouge our most ardent fans, we will do so so we don't lose money. As a season ticket holder who paid for 14 games but received 11 this year, I am well aware of the Prime Directive of Ivy Sports. |
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HARVARDDADGRAD Postdoc Posts 2697 |
03-16-22 03:54 PM - Post#339388
Love the term "ardent" |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32859 |
03-16-22 04:19 PM - Post#339391
You didn't realize Penn students learned such a varied vocabulary, did you? |
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HARVARDDADGRAD Postdoc Posts 2697 |
03-16-22 04:34 PM - Post#339394
The term was used by Robin Harris in the article cited above. I was referring to her use of it. If there is a positive word that aptly describes those of us here, it's ardent. My wife and kids have used other, less kind, words to describe my habit. |
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palestra38 Professor Posts 32859 |
03-16-22 04:39 PM - Post#339397
Ah, so she did---it wasn't in the paragraph I quoted. Well, if it helps, I have an account at Ardent Federal Credit Union in Philadelphia. |
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OldBig5 Masters Student Posts 639 |
03-16-22 07:26 PM - Post#339407
Let's face it. This approach was never used by other conferences because it is dumb. The Ivy Presidents and ADs thought they stumbled upon something good and they were wrong. End of story until they fix it. |
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HARVARDDADGRAD Postdoc Posts 2697 |
03-16-22 09:25 PM - Post#339411
Interesting that they started at Penn, Yale, Harvard and Princeton. Wonder if they’ll show for the second half? |
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