Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3619
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
|
03-16-05 07:42 AM - Post#6667
Regardless of your opinion on Free's play time, it is a very interesting read. I do have to wonder what Fran might think of it though...
-Mike
|
TomPittsburgh
maximus
Posts: 538
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Reg: 11-28-04
|
Re: Anyone else read the article about Ebede above?
03-16-05 12:25 PM - Post#6668
In response to Mike Porter
that is a very interesting article..Ebede appears to be quite intelligent and introspective about basketball and life in general... the coach has given him opportunities to earn additional playing time and apparently Fran thinks he has not earned it..no doubt he is on the coach's short leash..one or two mistakes and he is back on the bench..that makes it difficult for this young man but I find it hard to fault Fran's personnel decisions.
|
Penn90
Masters Student
Posts: 575
Reg: 11-22-04
|
Re: Anyone else read the article about Ebede above?
03-16-05 01:07 PM - Post#6669
In response to TomPittsburgh
Ebede sounds like Mike Marshall, Lou Pineilla and other highly intelligent, literate and opinionated athletes. Generally, coaches don't like them because they're so opinionated, etc. They just want them to shut up and the best way to do that is to stick'em on the bench. If Ebede wants to escape the bench, he needs to perform so well that Dunphy has no choice but to play him.
|
palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32900
Reg: 11-21-04
|
Re: Anyone else read the article about Ebede above?
03-16-05 01:28 PM - Post#6670
In response to Penn90
I think that Ebede is not the only intelligent player on the Penn team. He may be the most earnest, however, and that earnestness, along with the fact that he did not grow up experiencing the day to day failure that young basketball players have to deal with in junior and high school basketball are responsible for much of his frustration.
From a pure game standpoint, Ebede is a classic "tweener." While he has skills, he is not a good enough ballhandler to be trusted with breaking down a defense, nor is he a good enough shot to be given free reign when he is open. I have not seen anything from him that he does better than the guys who are getting the PT----thus, I can't fault Fran on his rotation. I understand Ebede's frustration----see Duane King for a similar "tweener" and King was an outstanding defensive player....I'm not sure Ebede is at his level as a defender.
|
Buckeye Quake
PhD Student
Posts: 1601
Reg: 11-21-04
|
Re: Anyone else read the article about Ebede above?
03-16-05 02:06 PM - Post#6671
In response to palestra38
Couldn't disagree more. And I also find it ironic that you would use Duane King as an example to make your point. Wasn't it Dunphy at the breakfast following the 2003 season who stated that if he had one regret it was not finding more time for a player like Duane?
But regarding whether he does anything better than some players ahead of him. Absolutely. He jumps higher than some. He rebounds better than some. He runs the court better than some. He shoots better than some. He's stronger than some. All the same skills that Duane had but hardly got the opportunity to display. But apparently not enough to merit playing time in this system.
As for him being a "tweener", an overused baskletballism if there ever was one, I subscribe to Tubby Smith's theory. If the five best players on his team are all 6'5, that's who's playing the most. I'll take Tubby's success any day.
|
palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32900
Reg: 11-21-04
|
Re: Anyone else read the article about Ebede above?
03-16-05 02:22 PM - Post#6672
In response to Buckeye Quake
Without treading the slippery slope of "athleticism" vs. "basketball talent", I think you have identified the point at issue here. I disagree with your suggesting that he "shoots better than some." Who? I guarantee you that if Ebede could consistently hit some shots, he would have regular playing time. Do you think Kreitz or Klatsky brought all that much to the table except the ability to shoot? The one thing that is almost guaranteed in the Penn system is that a pure shooter with sufficient ball skills to get his shot off will play. Ebede does not shoot better than anyone that I have seen who gets regular time. He also is a suspect ballhandler. No question that in the open court, he can do it all, and I have been among the chorus calling for Dunphy to open it up. However, against a team like BC, that would be suicide. Fred might get some minutes, but I just don't see anyone in the regular rotation whom I would want to replace with Ebede. The guy who got the minutes he might have gotten is Whitehurst----I wouldn't take his minutes and give them to Ebede.
|
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6415
Reg: 11-22-04
|
Re: Anyone else read the article about Ebede above?
03-16-05 02:38 PM - Post#6673
In response to Buckeye Quake
I don't really question Dunphy's decisions re Ebede, but I also think Palestra overstates the case. Unquestionably, Ebede does some things better than some of the guys who play. Of course, the same could be said of just about everyone on the Penn bench.
As for Tubby Smith, that may be his theory, but I'm not sure it's all that different in practice. Playing the best 5 may have given him the idea that Prince could play the 3 in college, but I think he eventually saw that that wasn't the most effective way for Kentucky to play. And Penn doesn't exactly shy away from the best 5 approach -- U, Koko, Schiff, Begs, and Andy T were all between 6'4 and 6'8.
|
Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8331
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
|
Re: Anyone else read the article about Ebede above?
03-16-05 04:30 PM - Post#6674
In response to palestra38
Quote:
No question that in the open court, he can do it all, and I have been among the chorus calling for Dunphy to open it up. However, against a team like BC, that would be suicide.
I am not so sure about that. BC has more depth, but they are not (from what I have seen & read) a team that likes running up and down the floor. They like the half-court game where they can take advantage if their inside scoring. I, for one, would hope to see Penn open things up a bit tomorrow and Ebede might be needed to cover Dudley from time-time.
|
Buckeye Quake
PhD Student
Posts: 1601
Reg: 11-21-04
|
Re: Anyone else read the article about Ebede above?
03-16-05 04:31 PM - Post#6675
In response to palestra38
Aside from Begley, I'm really not sure just who you consider to be a "shooter" on this team. And if you're relying on percentages then I'm not even sure he qualifies. Is Ibi a shooter? Oz? Zoller? Surely not Danley. If anything, I'd classify them all as scorers rather than shooters. And given the opportunity, I think Free could score with any of them.
Hey look, the guy won the league with what he does and I look pretty foolish arguing against it. That being said, I still think he leaves a lot to be desired when it comes to utilizing the talent he has. And that doesn't necessarily have to come at someone's expense. Just expand the bench a little and try to count past eight. Or will it be seven on Thursday?
|
palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32900
Reg: 11-21-04
|
Re: Anyone else read the article about Ebede above?
03-16-05 04:53 PM - Post#6676
In response to Buckeye Quake
I think what it comes down to is that Ebede got a chance to be the 8th man this year and didn't satisfy the coach that he could do the things necessary in the normal offense to do the job. As far as Fran managing his talent, I think you have to agree he may have done his best job ever in that regard this year. You may be able to start second guessing again next year with all the talent coming in, but for right now, let me ask it again---who among the first 8 (the starters with Fikiel, Pettinella and Whitehurst) would you take minutes from to give to Ebede?
|
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6415
Reg: 11-22-04
|
Re: Anyone else read the article about Ebede above?
03-16-05 06:05 PM - Post#6677
In response to Streamers
I don't think that's how you beat BC -- not just for Penn but for just about any team. Teams that are a lot more suited to running than we are really haven't been able to do it to BC, and I don't think any of their losses have resulted from this.
I think we've got an opportunity to play a physical, low-scoring game, and that probably maximizes our chances of shooting well, getting a couple of breaks, and sneaking out with a win. Given BC's care with the ball, etc, and their seeming susceptability to a team that passes with precision (at least against West Virginia), I don't think this is Free's game to play much. He's looked less in sync with the offense lately to me, and whether that's the coach's fault or not, it's not what we need tomorrow.
|
Buckeye Quake
PhD Student
Posts: 1601
Reg: 11-21-04
|
Re: Anyone else read the article about Ebede above?
03-16-05 06:51 PM - Post#6678
In response to palestra38
I don't necessarily agree that this is the best coaching job he's done because that would be ignoring the pre Ivy games. You just don't have your best coaching year and lose to Rider at home. What I absolutely can't argure is that he won the league going away in a year in which the blow hard talking heads and invisble scribes picked him not to. And for that I commend him, although I think the league stunk this year.
And since you asked, I would play Free instead of Zoller in a minute. But for some reason, no amount of turnovers, or bad shots, or not running the offense correctly, all of which Zoller is prone to by the way in the "normal offense", is going to make that happen. He's not one of the annointed eight.
|
SFlaQuaker
Postdoc
Posts: 2427
Reg: 11-21-04
|
Re: Anyone else read the article about Ebede above?
03-16-05 07:38 PM - Post#6679
In response to Buckeye Quake
You really must not see what Zoller does in the paint or on the glass if you think that.
|
Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8331
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
|
Re: Anyone else read the article about Ebede above?
03-16-05 07:46 PM - Post#6680
In response to SomeGuy
I agree with the part about keeping it close and staying in control. I also think it makes sense to put Free & Ryan in the game for short periods to open things up and give them a different look. The pound-it-inside half court game that worked so well against the Ivies this year will not work as well against a team that does it better than we do. We have to get their bigs to come out and play somehow.
I also felt (until I read that Oz may play 20) that we really needed Free to help out defending Dudley.
|
Buckeye Quake
PhD Student
Posts: 1601
Reg: 11-21-04
|
Re: Anyone else read the article about Ebede above?
03-16-05 08:25 PM - Post#6681
In response to SFlaQuaker
Oh believe me I see what he does in and out of the paint. And I'm not impressed. But more importantly, I don't think the opposition is either.
|
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6415
Reg: 11-22-04
|
Re: Anyone else read the article about Ebede above?
03-16-05 09:04 PM - Post#6682
In response to Buckeye Quake
Boston College may not be, but I don't think that's true of the opposition generally. Remember it's the opposing coaches who made him honorable mention All-Ivy. Zoller's the only player on the current team where I've seen an opposing coach call timeout specifically b/c they couldn't stop him (Miller at the Palestra last year).
I also think you should take a look at the stats at this point, particularly his rebounds and shooting percentage. We can rebound with most opponents when he's on the floor with Danley or Pettinella, and his rebounding is absolutely essential when he's paired with Jan up front. It took that great late run in the Ivies, but he shot over 50% for the year may well have ended up being our most efficient offensive player -- again. Unfortunately, efficient doesn't mean consistent.
Finally, this doesn't have to be about Zoller v. Ebede. All it takes is a minute from each guy plus a couple here and there to get Ebede 10.
|
Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 7001
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
|
Re: Anyone else read the article about Ebede above
03-16-05 09:39 PM - Post#6683
In response to SomeGuy
In Zoller's case, there's also hope that the extended rest has made his balky ankle less balky. Having him at his pesky best tomorrow is a key.
We also need Jan to hit a couple of 3s when he's in there, a la WVU's Pittsnogle. BC will give up that shot.
|
