AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts: 4366
Reg: 11-21-04
|
Re: The Ivy League Today
03-22-05 04:52 PM - Post#6869
In response to BrownBearForLife
We have a huge advantage. Winning begets winning. We recruit by utilizing the opportunity to reinforce the fact that we provide a real opportunity to get to the Dance while schools like Brown don't. Then there's the Palestra. Throw in the Big Five and Wharton and you guys have a big hill to climb.
But - that referee stuff is nonsense.
|
QHoops
Senior
Posts: 369
Reg: 12-16-04
|
Re: The Ivy League Today
03-22-05 05:20 PM - Post#6870
In response to BrownBearForLife
BrownBear:
I don't think there is any question Brown has taken a step forward - that's great, and hopefully they can continue the transition.
But to suggest that officiating is a cause of the P's dominance strains credibility. In the last 13 years, the total losses by the league winner is 9 (one of the P's, with Yale 'tying' in 2002). Eliminate the games the P winner lost to the P loser, and the number is amazingly small - the league winner probably averaged less than 1/2 a loss a year to any non P.
Yale (and Brown) threatened in 2002. In all other recent years, the P winner dominated all the non-P's. To suggest a gap that big was was caused, reinforced, or in any way influenced by officiating is silly.
|
palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32881
Reg: 11-21-04
|
Re: The Ivy League Today
03-22-05 05:28 PM - Post#6871
In response to AsiaSunset
Exactly...you beat me to it. I agree with Brown Bear to the extent his complaint is about the near hubris of some the the Quaker fans and the gnashing of teeth over the NCAA loss. I don't agree that Brown has done all it can to upgrade the program...when it sold off Marvel, it moved into something worse----truly an amazing admission that there is no vision for a successful program. They made a really nice hire with Miller, and have done the best they can with the resources they are willing to commit---however, the resources are not nearly enough to compete with the Ps.
Complaining that the records over the past 37 years prove that the Ps have unfair advantages is logic unworthy of an Ivy graduate---it is deductive reasoning at its worst. What they prove is only that the Ps have been consistently better, year after year. However, Brown has never tried to compete on a level playing field---they did not build an arena they can recruit around and sell to the alumni as an asset, they have not paid their coach to keep him from bigger programs as has Penn, they have not created interest beyond the current student body....all these things are the reasons for the long term disparity. And as for the refereeing....that is a loser's cry. Penn has lost as many games through bad calls on the road as anyone----and in the game in particular, Brown blew a lead in the last several minutes before the allegedly bad call. You simply don't blame the calls when you shouldn't have been in a position to lose.
However, I understand your point on the "Yankee" feel you get here...especially as a Mets fan myself.
|
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6415
Reg: 11-22-04
|
Re: The Ivy League Today
03-22-05 05:35 PM - Post#6872
In response to BrownBearForLife
I think what Chip says is true about a number of the schools in the league, but probably not Brown. Right now it looks to me like Brown and Columbia probably have joined the Ps in committing at an institutional level to winning basketball games. Whether that commitment continues is a little tougher to be sure of.
|
BrownBearForLife
newbie
Posts: 16
Reg: 02-01-05
|
Re: The Ivy League Today
03-22-05 05:48 PM - Post#6873
In response to AsiaSunset
I agree with you that winning begets winning. The reason for my focus on the 2003 game is that was our chance to win. Had some of the calls gone the other (many would say correct) way that game - maybe we win the league - and maybe, just maybe, that winning begets more winning. What is so frustrating for a Brown fan is that those chances are so few and far between. Even when Penn doesn't win the league - it never has to truly rebuild - which Brown has been forced to do more often than not - although recently that hasn't been the case. You are correct - there is no way to explain all 37 years of dominance of the P's on questionable officiating - I'm not suggesting that. I am suggesting that in 2003 - I felt that Brown was robbed - and in this league - one chance to win for a Non-P is a HUGE opportunity. Sadly, we didn't make the most of that chance. I just hope we get another one sooner than later.
All this talk about the arena means little to me. The Palestra is a great venue - but I don't imagine that Onyekwe or Allen or Maloney felt that was the MAIN reason they wanted to play at Penn. Nor do I believe that the Pizzitola scares away potential Ivy recruits. What matters is what happens inside the building - and at Brown these days - the environment is much better than it used to be. Is it as good as the Palestra? Probably not. Is it a reason for me as a potential recruit to eliminate Brown? Definitely not. As for paying our coach enough - I'm as stunned as the next guy that Miller is still there - but we must be paying him enough to keep him this long.
Palestra38 - I'm glad that there are Penn fans who have sense and perspective - for that - I respect your thoughts.
|
mshimmy
Sophomore
Posts: 193
Loc: Miami, FL
Reg: 11-22-04
|
Re: The Ivy League Today
03-22-05 08:18 PM - Post#6874
In response to BrownBearForLife
I don't know if you've ever been to the Palestra. But I feel like when I talk about it with fellow students, we usually assume the opportunity to play home games at the Palestra, in front of Palestra crowds (or Big 5), is basically the reason we get such great recruits.
|
Howard Gensler
Postdoc
Posts: 4141
Reg: 11-21-04
|
Re: The Ivy League Today
03-23-05 12:30 AM - Post#6875
In response to BrownBearForLife
So after ridiculing me as part of some group of arrogant Penn fans, you make the claim that it's the system that favors the Ps and the best you can come up with is a bad referee call in 2003.
Here's what favors the Ps: The Ps!
I have no interest in writing a comercial for Princeton, but here's the essential Penn problem in ten points (and it's not hubris, it's reality):
1. Penn has the best arena (by a lot).
2. Penn has a history of success in basketball.
3. Penn has the Big 5.
4. Penn has a large traveling alumni fan base.
5. Penn brings its band and cheerleaders to road games.
6. Penn has an urban campus.
7. Penn has more top-flight HS basketball within ten miles of its campus than any other Ivy school but Columbia.
8. Penn has the Sonny Hill Summer Leagues just minutes away.
9. Penn routinely plays one of the League's toughest non-conference schedules.
10. Penn has the League's most experienced and winningest coach.
That's just the way it is. As I've said before, the Ivy league is inherently unequal when it comes to basketball. And you yourself said that the other six teams are Cinderellas the same way the Ps are a Cinderella when they go to the NCAAs. I agree with you, except that the six are actually far greater Cinderellas. The Ps have won 3 first round games since 1990. The non-Ps have not won the League title once. What's wrong, however, with the Cinderella analogy is what makes the Ps a Cinderella in the tournament is that we play by different rules. In the League we all play by the same rules.
So taking Brown out of it because you're rightfully biased, let's use Harvard as an example. Maybe the Crimson will win a title next year but they haven't won one yet and they never won an EIL title either. The wealthiest, arguably most famous, university in the world and they've not won a basketball title in 100 years. They've won football titles, baseball titles, hockey titles. How can you possibly say they're committed to winning basketball titles?
I desperately want the League to improve for a variety of reasons, but too much hand-wringing on this board goes into litanies of Penn and Princeton are too good and it's not fair. So what do we do about it?
Asia believes that an Ivy tournament would help. I adamantly disagree for countless reasons illuminated on other threads, but at least it's an idea. I propose improving the financial aid packages without lowering academic standards and get vilified as a man who's lost his common sense - but there's no question it could be done and there's no question it would bring more quality players into the League. While the Ps might still skim off the best of them, if you can get the other teams into the Top 150 (as Brown and Yale were a few years ago) they have a chance to knock off a P (as they almost did). If the League continues to be dominated by teams below the Top 200, they've got very little shot of winning enough League games to unseat the P ranked 100 spots higher.
Assuming that 1 P or the other (maybe both) is going to be ranked somewhere between 51 and 100 in the RPI, using 2004 RPI numbers, teams ranked 101-150 had 72 wins against teams ranked 51-100. Teams ranked 151-200 had 42 wins. Teams ranked 201-326 had a total of 24 wins against that level of competition. Four Ivy teams are ranked in this strata and unsurprisingly they went 0-8 against Penn. Unfortunately, four to six Ivy teams are almost always ranked in this strata. So other than increasing the quantity of mid-Major caliber players coming into the League (from a trickle to a steady drip) how do you raise the lower teams up so they can have a realistic chance to win?
I don't think you can.
Sure, once in awhile the stars will align, but a few times every forty years is not a League. And since you brought up the comparison to the NY Yankees, the Yankees have won 38 pennants since 1920. Penn and Princeton have won or shared 43 Ivy basketball titles since 1956.
If you think that's hubris BBfL, I'm sorry. I'd love to hear your suggestions for making the League better.
|
10Q
Professor
Posts: 23506
Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
|
Re: The Ivy League Today
03-23-05 01:08 AM - Post#6876
In response to Howard Gensler
I just can't imagine that this debate is still going on. It's several years now this same debate has been hashed and rehashed. I have the feeling in the year 2525, this same thread will appear.
|
foehi
Masters Student
Posts: 531
Reg: 12-22-04
|
Re: The Ivy League Today
03-23-05 02:14 AM - Post#6877
In response to Howard Gensler
#11 Penn has had an adminestration that has placed a value on being having a strong program. Jury is still out on the Amy regime, but Judy cared.
|
Howard Gensler
Postdoc
Posts: 4141
Reg: 11-21-04
|
Re: The Ivy League Today
03-23-05 02:19 AM - Post#6878
In response to foehi
Based on her attendance and enthusiasm at games, Amy cares more than Judy.
|
BigGreenjeans
goober
Posts: 54
Reg: 11-22-04
|
Re: The Ivy League Today
03-24-05 01:57 AM - Post#6879
In response to Buckeye Quake
I like Dunphy. And I like Penn's players, they're good guys. But for the whiny, obnoxious, preening, precious Penn fans, it was great to see the Quakers humbled.
|
foehi
Masters Student
Posts: 531
Reg: 12-22-04
|
Re: The Ivy League Today
03-24-05 02:14 AM - Post#6880
In response to BigGreenjeans
Dunphy and all the "good guy" players will be consoled by your approbation of them and will surely understand that their loss is justified by the effect it has had on the "whiny, obnoxious, preening, precious Penn fans". They will share your view that " it was great to see the Quakers humbled". You are not a true Ivy fan.
|
Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts: 4006
Reg: 11-23-04
|
Re: The Ivy League Today
03-24-05 05:19 PM - Post#6881
In response to foehi
We all seem to be covering the same ground again and again. The underlying premise of many posters seems to be that because Penn gets blown out in the first round, there must be something wrong with Ivy Basketball. It ain't perfect, but I, for one, like it the way it is. I think the league is unique and is better off without athletic scholarships and without a league tournement.
|
BrownBearForLife
newbie
Posts: 16
Reg: 02-01-05
|
Re: The Ivy League Today
03-24-05 06:19 PM - Post#6882
In response to foehi
Foehi:
If Brown or Dartmouth made the tournament - would you pull for them? Did the Red Sox pull for the Yankees in 2003? Or the Yankees pull for the Red Sox last year? Did the Knicks pull for the Bulls back in early 90's? Please. Just because we don't bow down to the almighty Quakers - we aren't "true Ivy fans" -- that makes a lot of sense. We happen to be the best fans of all - willing to endure years of lower-division finishes in order to celebrate that much more when we beat the system. Maybe we would consider pulling for Penn if we didn't have to read all of your babble on these posts all year long. And for the record - if Brown did make it - I wouldn't ask for nor would I want your support.
|
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6415
Reg: 11-22-04
|
Re: The Ivy League Today
03-24-05 06:50 PM - Post#6883
In response to BrownBearForLife
It sounds to me like you're a "Brown fan" as opposed to an "Ivy fan." There's a contingent of us out there who actually pull for the league as a whole. I don't think there are a whole lot of AL East or NBA Eastern Conference fans. I'm a Penn fan, but I even manage to pull for Princeton out-of-conference.
|
foehi
Masters Student
Posts: 531
Reg: 12-22-04
|
Re: The Ivy League Today
03-25-05 12:01 AM - Post#6884
In response to BrownBearForLife
Would I root for Brown or Dartmouth if they made the Tournament? After picking myself up off the floor,absolutely and without reservation as I do for Princeton when they do. Whether or not you want my support is immaterial
|
dpostm92
Senior
Posts: 326
Reg: 11-22-04
|
Re: The Ivy League Today
03-25-05 12:14 AM - Post#6885
In response to foehi
Quote:
Would I root for Brown or Dartmouth if they made the Tournament? After picking myself up off the floor,absolutely and without reservation as I do for Princeton when they do. Whether or not you want my support is immaterial
Same here. I always root for the Ivy teams. Ultimately, any Ivy success is beneficial to the entire league.
|
Anonymous
|
Re: The Ivy League Today
03-25-05 12:56 AM - Post#6886
In response to BrownBearForLife
If you remember last year, there were a lot of Penn fans pulling for Princeton in the NCAA, and expressing their regret afterwards. And, despite you, I promise to do the same for Brown!
|
Howard Gensler
Postdoc
Posts: 4141
Reg: 11-21-04
|
Re: The Ivy League Today
03-25-05 03:10 PM - Post#6887
In response to BrownBearForLife
Quote:
We happen to be the best fans of all - willing to endure years of lower-division finishes in order to celebrate that much more when we beat the system. Maybe we would consider pulling for Penn if we didn't have to read all of your babble on these posts all year long. And for the record - if Brown did make it - I wouldn't ask for nor would I want your support.
Excuse me, but you don't have to read any of our babble...ever. You're like a guy who repeatedly visits a dominatrix and then complains he has welts on his butt.
And will you stop with this "woe is us" fight the power beat the system nonsense. What system? I'm still waiting for a reply from the last time I asked you. Brown is part of a League which has basketball as one of its sports and two of the teams traditionally play basketball at one level while the other six play it at another level. There's no nefarious conspiracy here.
For a few years Brown fielded a team near that level and they competed for the League title. This past year they didn't - and they didn't.
If you can bring up some League-wide, historical examples about how "The Man" is keeping Brown down maybe we can work something out.
|
