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Username Post: Kyle Smith to San Francisco        (Topic#18929)
RHunter3 
Junior
Posts: 281
RHunter3
Reg: 12-02-14
03-31-16 02:02 PM - Post#205587    
    In response to Columbia 37P6

I love him and his approach to coaching and recruiting. I wish he would have stayed, but now we need to a great replacement. We also need to put USF on the schedule

 
Murph 
Masters Student
Posts: 626

Age: 63
Reg: 09-13-11
Re: Kyle Smith to San Francisco
03-31-16 02:58 PM - Post#205594    
    In response to Murph

So Christ the Kings 2016 graduating seniors have committed to Arizona, Holy Cross, Robert Morris and Maine. Yikes!

Hiring Phelps on an interim basis is a no brainer. Not only does he have great potential as a recruiter, he already knows Columbia's players and remaining coaching staff.

This a low risk, high reward move.

 
sr 
Freshman
Posts: 36

Age: 69
Reg: 03-26-11
Re: Kyle Smith to San Francisco
03-31-16 03:24 PM - Post#205595    
    In response to Murph

i would think it would be next to impossible to recruit good players as an "interim " coach

 
cc66 
Postdoc
Posts: 2201

Reg: 10-09-09
03-31-16 03:36 PM - Post#205597    
    In response to Murph

On the contrary, the academic standards of these schools suggest that phelps connection would be moot. If no one could get into Columbia, why hire a basketball coach with those ties?


 
Murph 
Masters Student
Posts: 626

Age: 63
Reg: 09-13-11
03-31-16 03:47 PM - Post#205599    
    In response to cc66

Lower the standards to compete with Harvard and Yale.

Why would a kid play at Holy Cross or Robert Morris, if he could get recruited by Columbia?

We need a coach with a vision.

 
Chet Forte 
Postdoc
Posts: 2958

Reg: 03-02-08
03-31-16 03:58 PM - Post#205601    
    In response to Murph

We also need a coach who can live by the academic standards to which we are required to adhere to be part of the Ivy League.


 
cc66 
Postdoc
Posts: 2201

Reg: 10-09-09
03-31-16 03:59 PM - Post#205602    
    In response to Murph

You mean so he can then flunk out? Surely, you don't want to treat basketball players in such an instrumental fashion?

 
mrjames 
Professor
Posts: 6062

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
03-31-16 04:53 PM - Post#205606    
    In response to Murph

  • Quote:
Lower the standards to compete with Harvard and Yale.




Hey, if you keep saying it enough, maybe it'll become true!!!

I'm always curious why this ridiculous lie has so much staying power. I blame the secretive nature of the AI. Regardless, it's a completely false sentiment.

 
LionFan 
Senior
Posts: 398

Reg: 11-07-06
03-31-16 06:29 PM - Post#205612    
    In response to mrjames

The reason to appoint an interim coach is if you can't hire a permanent one, like a midseason resignation. No reason for it here, especially where you don't want to interrupt the delicate momentum the program now has. Also, with Columbia's national reputation and recruiting footprint, it doesn't make sense to hire a coach because he is known at a couple of high schools whose athletic academics don't generate regular, bona fide Ivy candidates. If NYC Catholic school athletes are qualified and would consider staying home, Columbia will be in the mix, especially if Smith's progress is sustained or improved on. I think CU's talent level already is better than Robert Morris and Holy Cross. Why recruit downward?

 
SomeGuy 
Professor
Posts: 6391

Reg: 11-22-04
03-31-16 10:10 PM - Post#205616    
    In response to cc66

I don't think the academics of the schools tell you anything at all about the players. It's not like Arizona won't take a kid with a high AI.

Moreover, Cohen probably had Ivy offers, and the Patriot also uses the AI, if I remember correctly. I think Yale and Brown were involved. Not sure if Columbia was. If they were not, I kind of doubt academic standards were the reason.



 
Murph 
Masters Student
Posts: 626

Age: 63
Reg: 09-13-11
04-01-16 04:43 AM - Post#205625    
    In response to SomeGuy

Exactly. How do we know these Catholic school kids can't meet the academic standards, whatever they may be, unless we try to recruit them? Who knows, maybe a guy like Phelps can inspire some of these kids to want to stay in NYC and play at a great school, in a league that's getting better and better and getting more and more national exposure.

And I only say hire Phelps on a interim basis, because that worked so well with the women's basketball coach.

 
TheLine 
Professor
Posts: 5597

Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
04-01-16 08:10 AM - Post#205627    
    In response to Murph

Pre-AI there was a good pipeline of city kids going to the Ivies - most notably NYC kids to Columbia and Philly kids to Penn. The public school well has dried up completely. Having a couple of nieces in the NYC public school system it's obvious why - if you want to go Ivy you need to go to an academic magnet school like Bronx Sci or Sty and none of those schools are good at basketball. Go to a non-academic school and it's difficult or impossible to get the type of mentorship you need to go Ivy. There's some hope that the right coach can develop a pipeline with the Catholic schools, not that it's going to be easy to do. Smith was actually reasonably successful when compared to his peers - first Davis out of a NYC Catholic school and now Mike Smith out of a Chicago Catholic school.


 
cc66 
Postdoc
Posts: 2201

Reg: 10-09-09
04-01-16 08:18 AM - Post#205628    
    In response to SomeGuy

Sure, some recruits who function above the rim academically may go a better basketball school on the misguided assumption that they end up in the NBA. I, however, am betting that 1) the list of schools Murph cited DO reflect a lower level of academic skill than is required to get into Columbia; and 2) if contact with such students is Murph's argument for why we should hire Phelps, there are very, very few such students, which makes Murph's argument pretty weak.

 
LionFan 
Senior
Posts: 398

Reg: 11-07-06
04-01-16 10:27 AM - Post#205636    
    In response to cc66

Also in the background of the discussion is the assumption that NYC Catholic and public schools are not on the recruiting radar. I doubt that's true. Why would a coach pass up another Ricky Free (Boys), Heyward Dotson (Stuyvesant), or Jim McMillian (Madison) - or another CJ Davis - in his own backyard? Sounds far-fetched to me. There are other reasons they're not coming. Assuming the coaches are incapable of recruiting them is unlikely.

 
LionFan 
Senior
Posts: 398

Reg: 11-07-06
04-01-16 10:40 AM - Post#205637    
    In response to LionFan

Another wildcard in this is whether high academic city kids who show promise as athletes are recruited to private prep schools in NYC and boarding. It could be that some of the most qualified kids are no longer staying in the PSAL or NYCHSAA. Might be an interesting study to see how many city kids end up at Ivies through the New England preps.

 
SomeGuy 
Professor
Posts: 6391

Reg: 11-22-04
04-01-16 11:17 AM - Post#205641    
    In response to Murph

Agreed that we shouldn't assume that these kids can't qualify. My only caveat to your point is that the coaching staff likely has a very good sense of who meets the AI and who does not. Maodo Lo not withstanding, there aren't a lot of hidden gems out there -- the Ivy schools know who the AI compliant kids are.

 
SomeGuy 
Professor
Posts: 6391

Reg: 11-22-04
04-01-16 11:30 AM - Post#205642    
    In response to cc66

Well, I hate to get into anything that undermines all the great things that our league has to offer, but . . . I think a high AI kid's decision to go to an Arizona may be a little more complex than a "misguided" assumption about playing in the NBA. At just about any less selective institution, there are going to be plenty of opportunities both academically and in terms of the foundation you build for the future. A lot of basketball players don't take advantage of these opportunities, but they are there.

The example I always use for this: in my law school class, there was one student who had multiple law firm offers the moment we stepped in the door (while the rest of us were scrambling for summer associate jobs, etc.). It wasn't any of the dozens of students who went to Ivy schools for undergrad. It was the one guy in our class who played high major college basketball.

More strong basketball players are choosing Ivy schools now, which is great, and I think is a reflection of how many players are thinking about how their basketball careers can set up the rest of their lives. But that doesn't necessarily mean that an Ivy school is the only place to go to do that. There are lots of ways that basketball can be a stepping stone to other things.

 
Columbia 37P6 
Postdoc
Posts: 2163

Reg: 02-14-06
04-01-16 12:21 PM - Post#205644    
    In response to SomeGuy

I agree with SomeGuy, Murph and everyone else on this Board who are saying that Columbia's next Head Basketball Coach needs to make a major effort to attract outstanding players from the New York Metropolitan Area. However, we have all been stating that for years, and what is more important, in my opinion, is that we need to step up our recruiting on a national level and attract that same type of 3 and 4 star players as Harvard has coming in this fall. Now I realize that there are doubters out there who feel that Harvard has an "institutional advantage" over the other seven Ivy League schools, and to some degree they may be true, but the fact is that Columbia, and for that matter, all of the other seven Ivies have their own "institutional advantages," as well. Taking Columbia Football as an example, the naysayers have been saying for years that Columbia couldn't recruit at the same level as the other Ivies. Well, guess what, Coach Bagnoli and his staff destroyed that myth overnight and the incoming class is rated as the second or third best FCS in America. Not only that, but for those of us who follow Columbia football recruiting, it is exciting to know that the Lions just hit a new recruiting milestone by being the first Ivy League School to reach the "100 Mark" in Rivals Recruiting, meaning that 100 top players nationally have already expressed an interest in Columbia. I doubt that has ever happened before. What it means is that Columbia Football is hot, very hot and that more academically minded high school players are interested in Columbia than Harvard at 57, or any other Ivy. Not to belabor the point, but Columbia's new Head Basketball Coach just needs to replicate what Coach Bagnoli and his staff are doing to be successful.


 
IvyHoopsFan01 
Freshman
Posts: 68

Age: 63
Reg: 10-28-14
04-01-16 12:53 PM - Post#205645    
    In response to Columbia 37P6

I agree. The changes in the Financial Aid has made the Ivy League far more competitive on a national basis for recruiting 3-star and 4-star athletes in both football and basketball. In past, we tended to focus our recruiting on the northeast region. Now, all of the Ivies are aggressively recruiting nationally and even selectively on a global basis.

That said, since New York is a hotbed for prime basketball talent, the next coach should continue to try to find additional CJ Davis players who may need to use a PG year to enroll at CU.


 
SomeGuy 
Professor
Posts: 6391

Reg: 11-22-04
04-01-16 01:48 PM - Post#205655    
    In response to Columbia 37P6

The other thing for Columbia is that I think you have (or will soon have) the opportunity to recruit the same 3/4 star kids that Harvard is looking at, even if you concede that Harvard has institutional advantages that will give them their pick of the 3/4 star crop. Harvard's profile has grown and the number of 3/4 star kids considering them has grown. Perhaps next year's class is an outlier, but if it isn't, there will soon be more 3/4 star players thinking about going the high academics route than Harvard can take. They can't take 7 kids every year. Even if Harvard has a brand advantage, Columbia still has an excellent brand that ought to be very appealing to a kid who wants a great education from a well-known school while playing high level basketball.

 
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