Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3618
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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04-11-22 04:32 PM - Post#340468
In response to 91Quake
Louis Hutchinson doing a post grad year.
Our recruiting is terrible.
Thanks for saying what a lot of people have been thinking. I don't see how anyone can look at our 2022 class of 1, and not see how this is a disaster as of now... especially after these latest bits of news.
I know nychoops mentioned us still being involved with some targets, so I hope these top secret kids are really going to blow our minds.
Real talk though, beyond the Penn attributes, how can we not even sell the idea of playing with a talent like Jordan Dingle?
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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04-11-22 04:37 PM - Post#340469
In response to Mike Porter
It's not a secret that this class isn't making waves. We have had a lot of late and/or uncelebrated recruits before who made an impact (Onyekweh, Jabeer, Dingle), but it sure would be settling to hear earlier about some impact recruits.
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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04-11-22 05:16 PM - Post#340471
In response to Penndemonium
I just wish someone had been out there raising the alarm, demanding change, etc.
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besnoah
Masters Student
Posts: 803
Reg: 12-14-05
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04-11-22 05:22 PM - Post#340472
In response to Jeff2sf
It's true that someone was raising the alarm, it's a shame that folks were arguing with him:
http://boards.basketball-u.com/showpost.php?post/3...
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besnoah
Masters Student
Posts: 803
Reg: 12-14-05
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2022 Recruiting
04-11-22 05:30 PM - Post#340473
In response to besnoah
The 2022 cycle was an unmitigated disaster. The 2021 class was sort of rescued by the fact that if you just jam 9 prospects across two classes together, you can end up with a decent prospect and some contributors.
But the team remains in very obvious trouble from a "having good players" standpoint. They are now losing battles to everyone. They lose to HYP, they lose to Notre Dame, they lose to Temple, they lose to Stanford, they lose to St. Joe's, they lose to UCF, heck they seem to have lost 2 kids to Columbia (!!!!) this cycle.
That Jordan Dingle's name is not in the portal is miraculous. It's not clear to me what the solution is, but from my (outsider, only monitors what's publicly available) perspective, 2023 is not looking better.
Edited by besnoah on 04-11-22 05:31 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3618
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: 2022 Recruiting
04-11-22 05:57 PM - Post#340474
In response to besnoah
The 2022 cycle was an unmitigated disaster. The 2021 class was sort of rescued by the fact that if you just jam 9 prospects across two classes together, you can end up with a decent prospect and some contributors.
But the team remains in very obvious trouble from a "having good players" standpoint. They are now losing battles to everyone. They lose to HYP, they lose to Notre Dame, they lose to Temple, they lose to Stanford, they lose to St. Joe's, they lose to UCF, heck they seem to have lost 2 kids to Columbia (!!!!) this cycle.
That Jordan Dingle's name is not in the portal is miraculous. It's not clear to me what the solution is, but from my (outsider, only monitors what's publicly available) perspective, 2023 is not looking better.
This is a great summary of how I feel about where we are with recruiting as well. Have we landed some late players under the radar who have been great? Sure... but that is not how you win consistently long term. That's a gamble, and not one likely to get us where we all want to be. We are consistently losing to anyone and everyone in competing for recruits, and this is a problem. Step 1 is admitting we have a problem...
*Note Ugonna was not one of these under the radar types. He was very well regarded, but when he left Longbeach State they wouldn't let him out of LOI so that was huge boon to Penn, no LOI.
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GoQuakersGo
Sophomore
Posts: 119
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: 2022 Recruiting
04-11-22 06:03 PM - Post#340475
In response to Mike Porter
I will add to the praise of the previous summary of how badly Penn is recruiting.
I hope Steve realizes how much his assistant coaches are failing him. If they cannot compete on the recruiting trail, they need to go. I realize this is difficult due to the personal relationships the coaching staff has formed, but if a change isn’t made ASAP, it’s going to result in them all losing their jobs.
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nychoops
Junior
Posts: 243
Reg: 11-23-04
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04-11-22 08:05 PM - Post#340476
In response to GoQuakersGo
It’s not in my nature to be critical but I have made my sentiments about this staffs recruiting style known in the past and unfortunately it is catching up to them. Their are/were players that I KNOW they have dropped the ball on. They are still involved with a kid as well as having reached out to a few kids in the portal.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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Re: 2022 Recruiting
04-11-22 08:32 PM - Post#340477
In response to GoQuakersGo
I'm afraid that blaming assistants isn't really productive. I believe it is about the institution and the head coach. The head coach chooses the assistants and should understand what the team needs on that front.
Losing any individual recruiting battle (such as these) isn't the issue. The broader body of work is. Being able to sell the value proposition and vision with a cohesive process - and close the deal - is too.
I am not beating a drum, but also have to acknowledge the appearances and reality too. SD has been great in most respects except recruiting. He's recruited some generational players, but never with multiple stars. I have no idea why more players aren't choosing a top university with a great coach, great team chemistry, and great basketball tradition and market. It seems like it should sell itself to get slightly more than our share.
I will add to the praise of the previous summary of how badly Penn is recruiting.
I hope Steve realizes how much his assistant coaches are failing him. If they cannot compete on the recruiting trail, they need to go. I realize this is difficult due to the personal relationships the coaching staff has formed, but if a change isn’t made ASAP, it’s going to result in them all losing their jobs.
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GoQuakersGo
Sophomore
Posts: 119
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: 2022 Recruiting
04-11-22 09:53 PM - Post#340478
In response to Penndemonium
Penndemonium I totally agree with you. As you said, "SD has been great in most respects except recruiting."
This is why I focus my attention on the assistants. Steve has proven at Cornell, BC and now Penn that his main strengths are not in recruiting. That is why it's essential that he recognize that flaw and surround himself with assistants who can fill in this crucial gap. Objectively, this group of assistants has not done that.
Does Steve realize this but is unable/unwilling to make a change? Does Steve not realize this? I obviously do not know. What seems indisputable is that if (a) Steve is going to remain the head coach of Penn and (b) Penn needs to significantly improve its recruiting, he needs to change his assistant coaching staff.
Ultimately, this comes back to Steve. He is in charge. Some programs need improvements to facilities or more resources in order to be competitive on the recruiting trail. Penn already has the best resources in the league. Penn needs an upgrade to its coaching staff, with a particular focus on assistants that can recruit top talent.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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04-11-22 11:04 PM - Post#340479
In response to GoQuakersGo
You may be right. I just tend to think that recruits ultimately decide on the entire staff, with the most weight on the head coach. The assistants form relationships, but the head coach is the closer. I could be wrong about how recruits think about this...
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nychoops
Junior
Posts: 243
Reg: 11-23-04
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04-12-22 08:39 AM - Post#340483
In response to Penndemonium
Gotten a few Dms asking to elaborate on my criticism of the current staffs recruiting “style”, which are very valid so thought I’d just address it here. All of my comments are simply what ive heard from recruits I’ve worked with as well as AAU/HS coaches. The staff represents itself and the university in a first class manor. Since I’m not even a little familiar with the requirements for admissions it’s hard for me to assess their abilities as talent evaluators. Where I’ve heard they fall short is in the modernization, persuit and dogged nature needed with todays kids. I know a few kids that were very interested in Penn and felt the staff didn’t prioritize them( and yes I know these particular kids were both admissible and more that talented enough)in respect to when allowed keeping in constant contact with them. I have a vested interest in this Penn team so let’s hope the staff can pull in a late recruit or a transfer( they are involved with a big who would be of immediate help). Hope everyone and their loved ones are safe and well
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8258
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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04-12-22 09:01 AM - Post#340486
In response to nychoops
Speaking for myself, I always enjoy reading posts from one of the two folks on the board who have real insight into our recruiting (Asia being the other.) Thank you.
That said, I’m also frustrated by what is going on with our recruiting, at the the same, I think SD is very competitive and knows he has a problem. I have to believe he is addressing it.
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AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts: 4361
Reg: 11-21-04
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04-12-22 01:44 PM - Post#340517
In response to Streamers
I really don’t have any insight. Like others, I would be very disappointed if we end up with a one recruit class. The last time I remember that happening was Dan Solomito’s year.
I like Cameron Thrower and think he will be very good at Penn. My own observation is that Penn Men’s Basketball is pretty backward in terms of utilizing social media. Penn’s effort from team to team is very uneven but Penn men’s Basketball is among the least effective at Penn. Whether this negatively impacts recruiting is debatable, but if I was the coach I’d have a very active social media presence.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3618
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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04-12-22 07:26 PM - Post#340548
In response to nychoops
Gotten a few Dms asking to elaborate on my criticism of the current staffs recruiting “style”, which are very valid so thought I’d just address it here. All of my comments are simply what ive heard from recruits I’ve worked with as well as AAU/HS coaches. The staff represents itself and the university in a first class manor. Since I’m not even a little familiar with the requirements for admissions it’s hard for me to assess their abilities as talent evaluators. Where I’ve heard they fall short is in the modernization, persuit and dogged nature needed with todays kids. I know a few kids that were very interested in Penn and felt the staff didn’t prioritize them( and yes I know these particular kids were both admissible and more that talented enough)in respect to when allowed keeping in constant contact with them. I have a vested interest in this Penn team so let’s hope the staff can pull in a late recruit or a transfer( they are involved with a big who would be of immediate help). Hope everyone and their loved ones are safe and well
Thank you nychoops for sharing this, and hope you and your family and friends are also well. What is clear is that whatever the staff is doing is not working.
Continuing to recruit the same way, with the same people isn't going to be successful. Recruiting is selling, some people have this skill and some don't (I know this well from experience).
If I'm the boss, and selling isn't my strong suit, I would be damn sure I have an ace seller on my team. I don't see that here, and that is a problem.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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2022 Recruiting
04-12-22 11:21 PM - Post#340555
In response to Mike Porter
You might be right, but nychoops seems to be saying there is a breakdown in the process, not just the closing. We just aren't getting as close to the players as others. This gets perceived as lack of interest.
Sales is a process, and a breakdown at any step along the way can kill the deal. Starting from awareness, building a brand, gaining consideration, selling the proposition, communicating values, and building trust... you have to be #1 in each of these areas to the recruit. Both the head coach and assistants have to be really good at filling the entire value chain. I guess in addition to financial aid, there is now a NIL factor too. If I've learned anything about Gen Z, it is that they are not big believers in delayed gratification. An Ivy degree is still a positive to many, but it may not hold up unless the ivies do a good job on NIL too.
For all of the flak that we gave Amaker about stalking Rosen in the supermarket, I have to admit that I respected the effort and attention to detail shown to recruiting. That's what it takes to win. Gen Z expects to be served. How Amaker knew when and where to be to find Rosen is a bit scary, though.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3618
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: 2022 Recruiting
04-13-22 03:00 AM - Post#340561
In response to Penndemonium
I agree. I was simplifying it for sure. Sales and Partnerships are a process I know well (as it sounds like you do too). You need a mix of skills from opening to closing. It's easier to close if those opening and developing the relationship do a good job. Of course head coach has to help close the deal, but if you're not the guy that is going to be texting and tweeting with kids 24/7, then you better have some killer assistants ready to play the game. That piece of it from my understanding is much more on the assistants.
Regardless, my point remains. The same process with the same people is not going to magically create better results. I like Donahue, I'd love for him to succeed. Recruiting is absolutely critical and it is not good enough now.
This leaves you with 3 options that I see:
1. Accept mediocrity in recruiting and hope for the best.
2. Change up some amount of assistant coaching personnel with a focus on recruiting.
3. Change entire coaching staff.
None of these are fun, but I particularly don't like 1 or 3 right now, so I'd start with 2.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6413
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: 2022 Recruiting
04-13-22 08:26 AM - Post#340562
In response to Mike Porter
Pushing back on this a bit, hasn’t Donahue publicly talked about this very thing (re-evaluating recruiting and trying to get higher rated recruits)? Making changes to recruiting takes time because of how early in high school teams make contact now. You can’t just flip a switch — because it takes years to build those relationships. It is possible that the single commitment this year is actually evidence of the change in focus.
Also, picking up on nychoops statements about uncertainty regarding some of the external factors that can impact recruiting. I know there has been a reduction in the number of basketball recruits Ivies can bring in during a 4 year cycle. I don’t know exactly what the number is (nor do we always know who qualifies as a walk-on, etc.), but you can’t just bring in 6 guys every year anymore. So we don’t know (or at least I don’t) exactly how many spots Penn has to give. It’s more opaque than knowing how many scholarships a high major has open.
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91Quake
PhD Student
Posts: 1126
Reg: 11-22-04
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04-13-22 08:39 AM - Post#340563
In response to SomeGuy
Just going to agree with almost all of what Mike is saying here.
And in regards to Steve changing recruiting and the player limits, we are failing compared to the other Ivies. We are not out there on social media or it seems in person as much as almost every other Ivy. And the results bear this out along with comments from knowledgeable posters such as NYCHoops.
Betting on finding and developing under the radar recruits is not a long term formula for success. Our recruiting is failing.
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AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts: 4361
Reg: 11-21-04
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2022 Recruiting
04-13-22 09:00 AM - Post#340565
In response to 91Quake
I’m pretty sure there is no limit on the number of basketball recruits. There is a limit on the total number of non football recruits spread across all of the non football sports. Penn has to manage desired allocations across these sports. I doubt very much that we have a 1 recruit class this year as a result of bumping up against a Penn imposed limit on the number of mens bb recruits
Edited by AsiaSunset on 04-13-22 09:08 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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