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Username Post: Fire ND!        (Topic#23900)
bison63 
Postdoc
Posts: 3600

Reg: 01-23-06
04-03-20 09:40 PM - Post#305739    
    In response to Old Bison

Just throwing this out, with no inside knowledge or info, but...it curious that as long as the team was winning, he was okay with the system, or at least willing to put up with it.

Don’t doubt that he had problems with coaching, but the losing season, and the fact that this will be a different world when school resumes had to factor in heavily. I seriously doubt that there will be a PL football season this year, and who knows about basketball. It is probably not a world in which a kid wants to be far from home. So yeah, maybe there are a lot of reasons. One thing is sure, life is not going back to what it was for quite some time, if ever.

 
HoleinOne 
Masters Student
Posts: 550

Reg: 02-15-09
04-06-20 10:36 AM - Post#305891    
    In response to bison63

A question more than a comment for this thread. Looking at thoughts regarding the performance of the Assistant Coaches. My perception is that recruiting is getting better but don't see any consistency in offensive or defensive strategy. Usually there is an assistant responsible for match ups and taking away the strengths of the opposition. May all be on ND but Bison competitive strategy not showing improvement, particularly the past two years.

 
Bison54 
PhD Student
Posts: 1536
Bison54
Reg: 11-18-09
04-06-20 06:38 PM - Post#305912    
    In response to HoleinOne

We miss John Griffen


 
HuskyColonial 
PhD Student
Posts: 1602

Age: 46
Reg: 02-17-12
04-07-20 03:46 PM - Post#305947    
    In response to Old Bison

Old Bison you have some unique perspectives. Haas was NOT Division 1 ready his freshman year. He waited his time because he was scrawny and couldn't defend worth a lick!

 
Old Bison 
Masters Student
Posts: 576

Age: 62
Reg: 07-09-17
04-09-20 12:45 PM - Post#306043    
    In response to HuskyColonial

He would have averaged 10-11 points as a freshman. provided range which we needed and was bouncy. Paulson didn't play him because he was a MTM defense first coach. What;s unique...we had no backcourt scoring and you take it in the shorts a little defensively to get what you need offensively.,,its a simple risk/reward tradeoff. Alsom he was just as "scrawney" as a senior as he was as a freshman and was the same scrawney kid I saw pump in 34 in mone half at Army and 34 against Nova AT NOVA when the were ranked in the top 10 in the country. What's more unique I'm not even gonna address

 
Old Bison 
Masters Student
Posts: 576

Age: 62
Reg: 07-09-17
04-09-20 02:14 PM - Post#306054    
    In response to Old Bison

For the statistical mavens

Some really BAD COACH's:

Phil Jackson - Career W-L %
CBA - Albany Patroons .565
Bulls - .738
Lakers - .676
Pres/GM Knicks - .325

Steve Kerr - Career W-L %
GS '15-'19 - .785
GS '20 - .231

Pat Flannery - BUCKNELL
Career - .566
1994-2004 & 2008 - .510
2005-2007 = .747

What I find particularly interesting was 137's commentary prior to/or during the PL tourney that Joe Jones was also a lousy coach. For reference:

Joe Jones - Carreer W-L %
Columbia - .443
BU - .531

Interesting that such a bad coach could get hired after CU with a .443 career winning %
Interesting that such a bad coach could go to the NIT in 2014 and a non-corona NCAA in 2020 while beating Colgate at Cotterell in the PL final. Also, was .531 at BU vs Flannery's .566.

Interesting further that Steve Kerr was such a great coach for 5 years and then such a bad coach this year, Also, that Phil Jackson was a "basketball genius" in Chicago and LA and then brought the "triangle offense" to NYC and went 80-166 in 3 years. Clearly he developed early onset and forgot everything he knew about basketball previously.

Phil Martelli was a career .575 coach at SJU over 24 years and took them to 6 NIT's and 7 NCAA's. His career W-L % was 9 pts higher than Flannery's and he was fired. Whose a better coach Martelli or Billy Lange and Griff (IN THE FUTURE!!!) coming off 6-26 or .188?

NATHAN JONES IS .613 at BUCK

How's that for stat's

Lastly, until Jay W is a career .722 coach at Nova and prior to beating Iowa in the first round at the Barclay's Center in 2016 they were saying he couldn't win the big one...until he did.
Tony Bennett is a career .743 career coach at UVA and after 10 years that wasn't enough. Like Jay, they were saying he couldn't win the big one...until he did.

Husky, I just cant understand for the life of me that with everything you and 137 and Psycho know about hoop that instead of coaching you're posting on an "opinion board" about hoop.

UNIQUE for sure


 
Old Bison 
Masters Student
Posts: 576

Age: 62
Reg: 07-09-17
04-09-20 02:17 PM - Post#306055    
    In response to Old Bison

OK...so now let me explain my post...

Players win games and players lose games

 
Old Bison 
Masters Student
Posts: 576

Age: 62
Reg: 07-09-17
04-09-20 02:45 PM - Post#306056    
    In response to Old Bison

Just out of curiosity...prior to this year's 14-20, ND had a career W-L record at BUCK of .660.

Did he make the decision to switch to the CYO offense this year or was he using the CYO offense the prior 4 years as well?

Fair question in my mind

 
DrBison 
Sophomore
Posts: 186

Age: 69
Reg: 12-22-08
04-09-20 04:31 PM - Post#306061    
    In response to Old Bison

Totally agree. Amazing how a multiple time COY, league champion leading coach can become a lousy, CYO level coach who should be FIRED! One season of adversity, poor team chemistry, injuries, strategies that obviously didn’t work, and the program is shot! Sounds like typical fair weather fans to me. Go Bison!

 
The Psycho of Sojka 
Freshman
Posts: 37

Reg: 11-15-15
04-09-20 07:02 PM - Post#306068    
    In response to Old Bison

Old Bison- I guess this topic really gets under your skin and that’s fine. It was my opinion to have him fired and many others believe in my topic. I agree that Davis’s stats look amazing every year since this year, but you also have to consider how many of those titles and banners that were hung up over the years should be added onto an asterisks and have DP before it. I would say a majority of those wins were from DP’s recruits and so forth. ND’s recruits are subpar in my opinion. I would say that his best recruit that he has had in this headcoaching days at Bucknell just left to go to OSU. All I’m saying there.
If you are feeling bored in quarantine I have a task for you that you can’t make an excuse on. Go look up Davis’s numbers at Randolph–Macon College when he had the ex coaches recruits vs. all of his recruits. When you do that I want you to reply to this message with your findings. I’ll bring you to the light.

 
HuskyColonial 
PhD Student
Posts: 1602

Age: 46
Reg: 02-17-12
04-09-20 07:47 PM - Post#306073    
    In response to The Psycho of Sojka

Sesstina to Kentucky and he excels. Sotos to Ohio States. Spears gone.

And Old Bison think everything is great and the problem is the players that ND recruits. Bizarre.

Needless to say, the last 15 years were fun and now they’re over. Time to rebuild.

 
Bison137 
Professor
Posts: 14873
Bison137
Reg: 01-23-06
Fire ND!
04-09-20 08:14 PM - Post#306075    
    In response to The Psycho of Sojka

  • The Psycho of Sojka Said:
Old Bison- I guess this topic really gets under your skin and that’s fine. It was my opinion to have him fired and many others believe in my topic. I agree that Davis’s stats look amazing every year since this year, but you also have to consider how many of those titles and banners that were hung up over the years should be added onto an asterisks and have DP before it. I would say a majority of those wins were from DP’s recruits and so forth. ND’s recruits are subpar in my opinion. I would say that his best recruit that he has had in this headcoaching days at Bucknell just left to go to OSU. All I’m saying there.






Looking back, these are the players ND inherited:

SR - Chris Hass, Dom Hoffman, Ryan Frazier
JR - Ben Oberfeld, John Azzinaro, DJ MacLeay
- - - -
SO - Nana Foulland, Zach Thomas, Stephen Brown
FR - Nate Sestina, Kimbal Mackenzie, Nate Jones
PLUS one available scholarship.

That is one of the most talented rosters in PL history. The combined freshman/sophomore class is in the discussion as THE most talented two-year group of players ever in the PL - and ND was lucky enough to have this group for 3-4 years. Those two classes produced six 1st-team All-PL awards, three 2nd-teamers, and two 3rd-teamers. Would have been one more had Mackenzie not been hurt the first 2.5 months of his junior year. Also Chris Hass was a two-time 1st teamer. Also add in six awards for the All-Defensive team.

With the above talent, it would have been hard for any coach not to be very successful. ND's first team not led by players recruited by DP, Dane Fisher, and Aaron Kelly was this year's team. Ultimately he will be judged by how he does with his own players. Hopefully a lot better than this year.

One puzzle is that the defense he used this year and parts of last year is quite different than what he used his first three years. The hallmark of the recent defense, i.e. the automatic switching one-through-five, has been criticized by many, including Old Bison, who has criticized it on many occasions. He has also criticized a number of elements of the offense. Hopefully ND will learn from his mistakes and focus on a more effective defense next year.




 
MrPhillie 
Postdoc
Posts: 2344
MrPhillie
Loc: NE PA
Reg: 07-14-08
04-09-20 08:37 PM - Post#306076    
    In response to Bison137

ND’s strategies and game management have been scrutinized at one time or another by most on this board. Less scrutiny when winning, more when losing. That’s what fans do in every sport. Overall, coaches are judged on who they recruit, how well the staff gets those players to play, and how many wins result. Sometimes, the talent can overcome the other issues. Old Bison says players win/lose games. I certainly think they are the most important variable, but not the only one. Sometimes players overcome poor coaching and sometimes great coaching overcomes mediocre talent. When the coaching and talent are subpar, that’s when losing occurs most frequently. ND better hope his latest recruits can play, otherwise, this past season will be his new norm.

 
Old Bison 
Masters Student
Posts: 576

Age: 62
Reg: 07-09-17
04-10-20 11:33 AM - Post#306094    
    In response to MrPhillie

Ok so now we are focused on the issue. Amazing what one has to go through to get to the issue. Psycho, believe me when I tell you that nothing has gotten under my skin. I was BRUTAL in my commentary in OOC. I don’t believe in scripted substitution patterns in the first half...I believe matchups on the floor are one of the most important game to game variables there are. For instance, putting Xander on Saeed Nelson was criminal. Spear and Newman actually gave him nightmares...counterintuitive. That said, most coaches today are system coaches. I worked for Tom Davis who along with Pitino was one of the earliest of system coaches. GARY Williams and Bruce Pearl (who was on the same staff) are direct clones on Tom. NOTHING happens in a vacuum. The other teams have coaches and players that want to win as well. Asking about ND’s inherited Players at RM & Buck is absolutely comical. THAT’S MY POSITION AND NOW YOU ARE CONVENIENTLY USURPING IT. Yes, if you want to say
recruiting is down then I agree. Would I have offered Timmerman? No. But as I said previously, it’s a case of taking a big guy who can shoot to a bad level. You guys think everything happens in a vacuum and that magically the kids you like better than Timmerman decide to commit. It doesn’t always happen that way! I’ve said a million times that “recruiting is a funny thing” and nobody knows how kids will project. How did CJ McCollum wind up at Lehigh? If Chris Haas went to Duke he’d be a household name. Stop the nonsense...it’s not that easy. You just don win every yea, year after year! What was UNC’s record this year...? So, by that logic Roy Williams is a crappy coach as well. He was in the National Championship game 2 out of the prior four years. By your rationale, Tony Bennet should have been fired mid-season. You’re not under my skin...I write and move on. Bucknell basketball is an elective passion and not my life. You are the guys who have clearly let it get UNDER your skin. Implying that a good man like Nathan is incompetent and deserves to lose his job! I’m not the person without perspective, and my perspective is in line with Bucknell's (and every other institution like it) mission statement. Let me go back to where I started, Jimmy transferring shows only that too much family overcame a 20 year old kids maturity and life experience level. It is not a statement on Bucknell’s basketball program. And, as far as it being a surprise you only had to be at a bar in Washington DC to know this was coming a long time ago.

 
Old Bison 
Masters Student
Posts: 576

Age: 62
Reg: 07-09-17
04-10-20 11:41 AM - Post#306099    
    In response to Old Bison

Timmerman btw is a poster child for pick and pop...especially if you contrast him with Newman. That’s how things sometimes go wrong!

 
MrPhillie 
Postdoc
Posts: 2344
MrPhillie
Loc: NE PA
Reg: 07-14-08
04-10-20 01:39 PM - Post#306115    
    In response to Old Bison

There are certainly things I don’t care for about Davis’ coaching style, decisions, personality....but getting fired after one very poor season is not appropriate. Of course there are times coaches absolutely deserve to be fired, just like any other profession. In reality, schools like a Bucknell will rarely fore a coach simply because of economics/finances.

But outside of NCAA or school violations or crimes, what would have to happen for you to fire a coach, Old Bison? Would there ever be a point where you would fire a good man like Davis? If it is the players that win/lose games, should a coach ever be fired? For me, different variables of recruiting, team chemistry, team success all play into this decision.

 
Bison137 
Professor
Posts: 14873
Bison137
Reg: 01-23-06
04-10-20 03:48 PM - Post#306119    
    In response to MrPhillie

It’s clearly not just the players who win and lose games. That is true if one team has far superior talent. But it is definitely not true when it comes to closely matched teams. Flannery, for example, won games this with inferior talent before he had scholarships. And a number of games have been won or lost in the endgame by good coaching or by bad coaching.




 
Old Bison 
Masters Student
Posts: 576

Age: 62
Reg: 07-09-17
04-10-20 04:07 PM - Post#306120    
    In response to MrPhillie

Mr Phillie...no problem with your last line, but the sample size isn't one season. For perspective and with respect to your question one can look at Fran O'Hanlon's career at Lafayette. He's been there for 26 years with a career W-L% of .457. In 2014 and 2019 he won 61% of his games. In the four years (2015-18) sandwiched in between, he won 29% of his games. Was he a good coach in 2014 that became a crappy coach in the years '15-'18 and became a good coach again in 2019? I can't answer that question or the question of whether he should have been fired in the period where he lost over 70% of his games but I can tell you that he didn't use the "high octane" offense in '14, the CYO offense in "15-'18 and then revert back to the "HO" offense this past year. How long do you want me to keep typing (i.e., want to evaluate the absurdity of Steve Donahue at Penn's career over last 19 years?). Clearly he wasn't a "good" coach that became a "bad" that became a "good" coach again. When Rick Pitino was an assistant at Hawaii and was offered the job as head coach at Boston U Howard Garfinkel (RIP) told him it was a "graveyard" and not to take it. Rick took it because he was an exceptional coach. Like anything in life none of these situations are exactly black and white. As a CEO, I don't "knee-jerk" and start cleaning house every time there's a rough patch in my business. First, it's not fair and second it;s not a formula for success. Nate's a big kid and he will either be successful and move up or be unsuccessful and be forced to move on. Situations like O'Hanlon's are becoming less and less common. I appreciate the maturity of your post and am only taking the sensibly contrarian position that some of the hyperbole here would be out of place even in the BC/Donahue context. In the Bucknell context it is absolutely shocking. Where's BC now...they're in exactly the same situation with Jim Christian (who's a good coach but will probably get let go).

Rule 62..."don't take yourself so #%$@ seriously"

 
Bison54 
PhD Student
Posts: 1536
Bison54
Reg: 11-18-09
04-10-20 05:54 PM - Post#306122    
    In response to Old Bison

et tu?


 
Old Bison 
Masters Student
Posts: 576

Age: 62
Reg: 07-09-17
04-11-20 07:11 AM - Post#306130    
    In response to Bison54

Psycho...I love you!...you’re just like my wife...you gotta have the last word...

And just to prove my wife correct that it is ME that has to have the last word...I’m not so sure you have used “et tu Brute” in exactly the right context...but alas, I get your point.

😋🥃☘️🙏...Have a nice Easter with your family and stay healthy

 
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