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Username Post: Some Other Perspectives        (Topic#23907)
BisonRoadWarrior 
Professor
Posts: 5203
BisonRoadWarrior
Loc: Where the Bison Roam
Reg: 08-16-06
02-03-20 12:01 PM - Post#298462    

Posting these in a different thread, because I sure don't want to bump one titled "Fire ND" in the midst of just one disappointing (so far) season, given what he's accomplished at Bucknell and elsewhere.

First, a couple posters have noted with dismay that, during timeouts, much of the team isn't focused on what the coach is saying.

I'd noticed the same phenomenon for years, under Paulsen and Flannery too. Like the other posters, I thought, "Hey, everybody should be paying attention! They could be put in the game and should soak up every bit of guidance!"

Then I had the opportunity to be on the team bench one game, and realized why most players just look around the arena: Between background crowd noise and whatever's blaring over the PA, I couldn't make out even a single word from the back of the huddle. That cured my long-simmering irritation quick.

  • RayBucknell12 Said:
For me, the backbreaker was the American game back in January. After that final defensive possession (up 2 with seconds to go), in which there was no ball pressure and a defensive switch leading to a wide-open, game winning 3, one of our seniors and team leaders visibly ripped into the coaching staff.

I saw the senior's eruption from close enough to hop down to replace the bench chair he'd flipped over in anger.

I had a pretty good listen, and his fury struck me as being entirely directed at teammates who left the shooter open. He was yelling things like, "We said NO THREES!!" I didn't get any sense he was angry with the coaches, much less that he was ripping into them.

 
nh2032 
Sophomore
Posts: 185

Reg: 02-28-06
02-03-20 01:52 PM - Post#298478    
    In response to BisonRoadWarrior

I agree with the need for a broader perspective. Especially with how much joy some folks here take in poking fun at the antics and overreactions of a certain purple clad message board it was ironic to see that other thread pop up.

There are without a doubt some legitimate concerns and disappointments from the season but we've also come out on the short end of a lot of 50/50s be it injuries, cold shooting streaks, officiating, etc.

I wish I had time to do the math on number of games missed from our top 6 players vs others but it's an especially stark contrast to the teams ahead of us in the standings. Granted some number of those games just go from blowouts to more competitive losses (@Rider, BU, Princeton) if we are healthy.

I don't know how to defend the automatic 1-5 switching defensive system at this point but trust the coaching staff enough to review and make adjustments moving forward and understand if it's not something they feel comfortable doing in the thick of the season.

I feel strongly our overall talent level (and thus recruiting) is above average for the PL but it is very evenly distributed amongst our players. In a league like ours you're much better off having 2-3 stars than quality from your 6th through 10th players off the bench. The coaching staff admitted coming into the year without a viable POY candidate is a big change and the adjustment has been tougher than expected.

We have some outstanding role players and glue guys who are crying out for a pure scorer to carry the offensive load. I'm willing to be patient until the fall with the slogan "In Deuce We Trust" firmly implanted and reassess from there. Just need to pray we somehow keep teams under 85 a game.

In closing, fire ND? No way. Trade ND for Paulsen? Eh, probably, and don't think that would have been my answer a year ago.

 
bison63 
Postdoc
Posts: 3857

Reg: 01-23-06
02-03-20 02:24 PM - Post#298480    
    In response to nh2032

Agree totally with the two prior posts. Did not see this thread before I posted my objections to “Fire ND” on that thread.

 
Bison137 
Professor
Posts: 16147
Bison137
Reg: 01-23-06
02-03-20 03:20 PM - Post#298483    
    In response to nh2032

  • nh2032 Said:
I agree with the need for a broader perspective. Especially with how much joy some folks here take in poking fun at the antics and overreactions of a certain purple clad message board it was ironic to see that other thread pop up.

There are without a doubt some legitimate concerns and disappointments from the season but we've also come out on the short end of a lot of 50/50s be it injuries, cold shooting streaks, officiating, etc.

I wish I had time to do the math on number of games missed from our top 6 players vs others but it's an especially stark contrast to the teams ahead of us in the standings. Granted some number of those games just go from blowouts to more competitive losses (@Rider, BU, Princeton) if we are healthy.

I don't know how to defend the automatic 1-5 switching defensive system at this point but trust the coaching staff enough to review and make adjustments moving forward and understand if it's not something they feel comfortable doing in the thick of the season.

I feel strongly our overall talent level (and thus recruiting) is above average for the PL but it is very evenly distributed amongst our players. In a league like ours you're much better off having 2-3 stars than quality from your 6th through 10th players off the bench. The coaching staff admitted coming into the year without a viable POY candidate is a big change and the adjustment has been tougher than expected.

We have some outstanding role players and glue guys who are crying out for a pure scorer to carry the offensive load. I'm willing to be patient until the fall with the slogan "In Deuce We Trust" firmly implanted and reassess from there. Just need to pray we somehow keep teams under 85 a game.

In closing, fire ND? No way. Trade ND for Paulsen? Eh, probably, and don't think that would have been my answer a year ago.




Agree with some of the above. Disagree with some. As for the automatic switching, over the last 5 weeks, I have closely watched 26 college games involving 45 different teams. Not one of those 45 chose to do what the Bison are doing, i.e. voluntarily switching a guard onto a center with no attempt to go over or under the screen or to hedge. And not one of those 45 teams has as bad a defense against 2-point shots as the Bison.

As for recruiting, looking at ND's first four classes, I would say it is maybe average for the Patriot League. Probably good enough to finish 5th or 6th in an average year. Every four-year group of recruits under PF and DP was clearly better.

As for injuries/illness/etc, the Bison are fairly average among PL teams. PL games missed by rotation players for each PL team:

Colgate 2
Boston U 2
Lafayette 11 (or 23 if you include Suffern who transferred out in December)
American 1
Navy 4
Army 1
BUCKNELL 5
Lehigh 11
Loyola 33
Holy Cross 12 (or 18 if you include Lowder who transferred out in early January)






 
atlantabison 
PhD Student
Posts: 1835

Loc: Atlanta, GA
Reg: 01-25-06
02-03-20 04:18 PM - Post#298485    
    In response to Bison137

I fall somewhere in the middle on this discussion. Let us not sugar coat that this season is anything less than a disappointment and that the coaching staff had not done as strong a job with this group of players as it has in the past. Yet when teams are good, coaches get too much credit. When they are poor, coaches get too much credit. Happy to argue with anyone the merits of the performance of this team, but this is not the SEC. While coaches are hired to win, at this level it goes beyond that. This program continues to be a credit to the university year in year out. After this year we will only be able to say we won 3 of the past 4 regular season titles. Say what you will about Paulsen's recruits being the cornerstone even in this disaster of a year we are currently 5-5 in league play. We fans need to have a longer view of things than 1 bad season. I always hope coaches will be self aware enough to grow and change when they have areas where they can show improvement, but a call to fire this staff based on performance over the past 4 weeks in light of the past 4 years is ridiculous in my opinion.
Ray Bucknell!


 
nh2032 
Sophomore
Posts: 185

Reg: 02-28-06
02-03-20 04:23 PM - Post#298486    
    In response to Bison137

To be fair I said injuries/illness for the season, not just PL play.

Avi, Meeks and Newman all missed multiple OOC games. Bruce and Meeks both missed full halves when first picking up their "upper body injuries" in my recollection. Jimmy at American and Meeks at Army both clearly struggled with "illness" and were off their games. Meeks even pulled himself from the game at one point after we started to cut the gap. To say our luck in that area has been average is overly generous imo.

All that compared to teams like Colgate or BU whose games missed in PL = games missed the entire year I believe (or AU whose only other absence I believe was when S. Nelson was suspended the first game).

 
raybucknell12 
Freshman
Posts: 54

Reg: 02-19-12
Re: Some Other Perspectives
02-03-20 04:52 PM - Post#298490    
    In response to BisonRoadWarrior

@BRW, I was several rows behind you, and my hearing isn't all that great, so I'll defer to you on what he specifically said. From what I remember, he was yelling directly at the coach's side of the Bison bench. That anger could have been directed at no one specific, too. I can't say what was in his head at the time.

The other two games that I attended this year, one win and one loss, had more players/coaches/officials than fans + staff. The gym did not have all that much background noise. From what I remember, the team did not seem nearly as attentive as previous teams, certainly not those in the DP era. Generally, the effort and energy was lackluster in those two games (despite the victory in the first game). I can recall one player in particular, an upperclassman, who in the past, I have considered to be one of the leaders of this team. I can't say I remember many games like that in DP's tenure. Losses, sure, but never any games in which we were out-matched on an effort level.

I'm struggling to level with those who would not trade ND for DP at this point. Paulsen recruited two of the greatest classes EVER in program history (2013-Muscala,Willman,Joh nson; 2018-Thomas,Foulland,Brow n). In fact, I'd challenge anyone to name one that is better (MAYBE some of the classes in 2005-2006 seasons). Not to mention other top-tier talent sprinkled in there (Ayers, Hass, Sestina).

With that kind of talent, you don't even need to be a stellar coach to win games in the Patriot League. Heck, even Davis did in 2017 and 2018 with those guys. This is his first season with only his recruits. And we're seeing how good "his" guys are. Not even top half of the Patriot League, and not even a strong Patriot League at that.

Some other thoughts:
1. Have we forgotten about the suspensions back in 2018? Bruce was a integral part of that team, and sat on the bench as we lost by a few possessions to MSU. Could we have won with him out there? Maybe. Yes, Bruce, et al., made rash decisions to break team rules, but at some point, the coach, the leader of the team, has to bear some sort of responsibility. I can't recall that ever happening in the DP era. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
2. Its painful to watch Kentucky all season long. Really happy to see Nate get tons of playing time and succeed. But if he is talented enough to be a integral player at program like Kentucky, he should have lit up the Patriot League last season. IMO, there should be no reason, other than lack of player development, that he did not dominate that league (a la Muscala 2011-13) and win MOP last season. What a disappointment that we wasted his one season in the starting lineup.





 
Bison137 
Professor
Posts: 16147
Bison137
Reg: 01-23-06
Some Other Perspectives
02-03-20 05:54 PM - Post#298493    
    In response to raybucknell12

I think one source of frustration for many fans is that the team has clearly gotten worse with each passing week. After the Hofstra game, the Bison were ranked #131 (Pomeroy). A few games late, after Yale, 177. After Siena 222. After American 231. Currently #250. Only once in the past 20 years have the Bison had a worse ranking than that.

If Loyola and Lehigh get healthy, I think they could realistically end up #9 in any PL year-end power rating. Hope I am too pessimistic.




 
nh2032 
Sophomore
Posts: 185

Reg: 02-28-06
02-03-20 07:17 PM - Post#298496    
    In response to Bison137

Lack of improvement is a legit concern. No argument there. Part of the same general theme on lack of consistency or flow to the season that generally would help that develop. No getting around the fact that we have a single 2-game winning streak to our credit on the year.

And agree based on our current form and Loyola's star recruit being back in the lineup I expect a long day in Baltimore on Saturday.

Not to go too far down the Paulsen rabbit hole but I seem to remember plenty of complaints about the coaching style when he was around as well especially with the offense. And admittedly I have only checked in on his progress periodically since the move to GMU, but it doesn't look like he's set the world on fire. The switch from CAA to A10 complicates the comparison but their avg KenPom rating was 147 during Hewitt's 4 years and has been 173 under Paulsen's 5 years if you include the current season.

If recruiting prowess was supposed to be one of DP's advantages over ND would love someone who has tracked GMU more closely to fill in my personal blindspots on how he's fared on that front since moving on.


 
Bison137 
Professor
Posts: 16147
Bison137
Reg: 01-23-06
02-03-20 08:03 PM - Post#298498    
    In response to nh2032

  • nh2032 Said:


Not to go too far down the Paulsen rabbit hole but I seem to remember plenty of complaints about the coaching style when he was around as well especially with the offense. And admittedly I have only checked in on his progress periodically since the move to GMU, but it doesn't look like he's set the world on fire.





Yes, there were a lot of DP criticisms his first 1.5 years - and many were justified. The offense he initially ran was not at all effective. To his credit, however, he radically changed it just after PL season began in 2009-10. I've talked to several players about this - and it is definitely true that major changes were made in what they were running.

Doesn't look like he's made the right adjustments at GMU, however, and the loss of Dane Fischer and Aaron Kelly has hurt. Dane, as you know, may end up as COY in the CAA.




 
MrPhillie 
Postdoc
Posts: 2757
MrPhillie
Loc: NE PA
Reg: 07-14-08
02-03-20 08:27 PM - Post#298500    
    In response to Bison137

This is just a horrible year. So far below the standard of Bucknell. Sure, everyone deserves some slack as it is so difficult to be #1 or #2 every year... but everyone at Bucknell...fans, coaches, admin..is always preaching how much better Bucknell is than the rest of the PL. Um, not this year. And the team absolutely has gotten worse as the year progresses...who gets blame for that??

And just a quick word about interest in the team. Perhaps ticket sales aren’t that bad, but AIS (to steal from Ray Barone) is definitely down. Sojka looks emptier to me than any other year I’ve been a season ticket holder..not just students, but everyone. We couldn’t be there to tonight, but the crowd for a TV game against a decent rival is poor. A lot of free t-shirts going unclaimed. If this continues, perhaps Bucknell athletics may take notice, if they haven’t already.

 
Old Bison 
Masters Student
Posts: 619

Age: 65
Reg: 07-09-17
02-03-20 08:48 PM - Post#298503    
    In response to MrPhillie

I’ll give you a perspective. I have been talking about this AWFUL play where we drop the ball to a 4 or 5 30 feet from the basket. 137 - was Meeks 30 footer a 2 for 1 this time. INEXCUSABLE

 
MrPhillie 
Postdoc
Posts: 2757
MrPhillie
Loc: NE PA
Reg: 07-14-08
Some Other Perspectives
02-03-20 08:56 PM - Post#298505    
    In response to Old Bison

I hate that play. Dropping it to Zach Thomas maybe...but overall it results in a turnover or wasted possession.

 
Old Bison 
Masters Student
Posts: 619

Age: 65
Reg: 07-09-17
02-03-20 09:11 PM - Post#298510    
    In response to MrPhillie

It wasn’t even a good play when dropping to Zack. Dropping to Meeks, Spear and NEWMAN early in OOC was basketball malpractice. Very sad that Jimmy has lost all confidence. I hoping and praying he can regroup and play without putting this kind of pressure on himself. Has lost his feel for when to put on the brakes and pull up and when to aggressively commit to finishing. Keeps on penetrating two bounces and stopping. Not confident from range and keeps getting stuck in indecision mode. Avi and Bruce need to step in and tell him he’s our captain. He has every skill required to turn it around this half. Praying for the kid. Not a good time for Funk to lose his stroke as well. They have to just grind it out at times like this. One character building and confidence changing moment and they can reverse this. With 26 pts at half and 2 consecutive games under 60 I’m way out on a limb here.

 
MrPhillie 
Postdoc
Posts: 2757
MrPhillie
Loc: NE PA
Reg: 07-14-08
02-03-20 10:08 PM - Post#298512    
    In response to Old Bison

It was said on TV that Bucknell hasn’t been this low in the PL standings this late in the year since 2008-2009. Davis is in his 5th year.

 
HuskyColonial 
PhD Student
Posts: 1976

Age: 50
Reg: 02-17-12
02-03-20 10:09 PM - Post#298514    
    In response to Old Bison

Worst Bison team I’ve ever seen in terms of cohesion and coaching. I’ve never seen a worse coached Bison team.

 
bison63 
Postdoc
Posts: 3857

Reg: 01-23-06
02-04-20 02:09 AM - Post#298520    
    In response to nh2032

  • nh2032 Said:


If recruiting prowess was supposed to be one of DP's advantages over ND would love someone who has tracked GMU more closely to fill in my personal blindspots on how he's fared on that front since moving on.



Paulsen’ recruiting “expertise” came in the person of Dane Fisher his assistant coach. Fisher, first choice of many on this board to replace DP, went to GMU with Paulsen when he didi not get the job. He is now HC at William & Mary. He clearly was Paulsen’s recruiting genius, and found Muscala.

 
HuskyColonial 
PhD Student
Posts: 1976

Age: 50
Reg: 02-17-12
02-04-20 09:49 AM - Post#298527    
    In response to bison63

First place in the Colonial Athletic Conference, William & Mary. 16-8 and that is not a program with a winning rich tradition.

 
jkrun80 
Postdoc
Posts: 3305

Age: 65
Reg: 05-07-12
02-04-20 10:39 AM - Post#298531    
    In response to HuskyColonial

I was one who advocated for hiring Fischer. But at the time, I thought hiring Davis was an equally good choice. I am willing to be patient and see if this season is an aberration. You could argue we could just as easily be 8-3 - but we're not. With two strong recruits coming in and plenty of talent coming back, next year looks to be better on paper. If it isn't, then there is a systemic issue.

 
MrPhillie 
Postdoc
Posts: 2757
MrPhillie
Loc: NE PA
Reg: 07-14-08
02-04-20 11:37 AM - Post#298533    
    In response to jkrun80

Just say that some games ended up differently and they are 8-3. That doesn’t change what problems exist, just makes them more palatable. Davis has said that quite a bit recently...even if they somehow pull out a game, the problems are still there. That said, I’d much prefer 8-3. I really can’t believe there is a strong chance we have no home playoff game. Just unimaginable at Bucknell.

 
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