barryw
Sophomore
Posts: 122
Age: 78
Reg: 05-05-10
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10-19-20 03:00 PM - Post#315058
Although I never went to Penn, I have been a fan all my life- I’m 74 and have season tickets every year. It is really hard to see all the major conference schools scheduling games and nothing from Penn. Villanova announced that they will still play Temple, LaSalle and St Joe as usual. Of course, Penn will be left out unless it happens after the new year when conference games are being played. Why does the Ivy League have to always go the opposite direction from big time schools?
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32803
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: It’s hard being a Pennfan right now
10-19-20 03:08 PM - Post#315060
In response to barryw
Public health. And the fact that our players are part of the student body. You can't say in an Ivy institution that there are different rules for athletes than for all other students. If students are not permitted on campus, how can they play basketball on campus.
I miss Penn basketball every bit as much as you, but there would be something hyperhypocritical (to invent a word) to play ball unless students return to campus.
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: It’s hard being a Pennfan right now
10-19-20 03:29 PM - Post#315065
In response to palestra38
While I have differences at times with many on these boards, what I share is a love of Ivy basketball. And while I have differences with the presidents on their policy choices at times, what I share is their concern for public health and the health of not just our student-athletes but their communities as a whole.
I was very proud of the league in March for doing the right thing for safety. That it led all sports is a fun footnote but isn't a reason for pride. It will do the right thing for safety this time around too and shouldn't be judged in the context of whether other conferences follow suit or the outcomes that those other leagues achieve.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3584
Reg: 02-15-15
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10-19-20 03:43 PM - Post#315066
In response to mrjames
Hmmmm. With a less than 1% death rate from the pandemic and plenty of others figuring out how to go about their business, what does "safety" and "public health" really mean?
To be clear, I am not for blindly opening everything up, neither am I for isolating everyone indefinitely. I think we can protect the vulnerable and figure out a way to go about our normal lives. If Ivies can lead the shut down, they can certainly lead the return to living effort.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32803
Reg: 11-21-04
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10-19-20 03:49 PM - Post#315068
In response to PennFan10
The issue is the incredible communicability of the virus, especially indoors. The NBA was unable to continue without a bubble. You can't do a bubble for the NCAA, absent a tournament format.
Now if they wanted to do a national tournament with all teams in a bubble setting, I'm all for it. If the Ivies want to do a tournament in a bubble setting, I'm all for it. But otherwise, the risk is intolerable.
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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10-19-20 04:04 PM - Post#315069
In response to palestra38
Absent a bubble, I don't see how to exert oneself indoors and be safe given I don't think basketball and mask wearing go well together. (and i sure as hell wouldn't be 74 wanting to go see a basketball game indoors).
But I do think we should be trying for school. Alternatively, I'd like to see a larger tuition rebate.
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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10-19-20 04:18 PM - Post#315070
In response to PennFan10
The thing that people seem to miss about this virus is that it is NOT inevitable that everyone gets it. In fact, with a highly efficacious vaccine that could be ubiquitous within six months, it's more likely than not that everyone does NOT have to get this virus.
The close indoor contact from sports and the gathering of teams increases the number of vectors of the virus. Increasing the number of vectors increases the likelihood of further spread and ultimately death. That risk is acceptable in some instances - people returning to jobs, younger kids returning to schools - but less acceptable in more "optional" situations like college athletics.
I'm not for locking everything down either, but as much as I love Ivy athletics, it's not a necessary activity that should be engaged in at the risk of propagating more vectors of the virus. And, it's important to note, that a recent CDC Morbidity and Mortality weekly report had a study on how spikes in college communities started with 18-22 year olds when they returned to school and were followed by a spike amongst older age groups in that community a few weeks later. It's very difficult to keep these vectors isolated to the college-aged kids in these communities.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32803
Reg: 11-21-04
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10-19-20 04:18 PM - Post#315072
In response to Jeff2sf
Agreed on both of your points. And Guttmann should take a pay cut---for appearances sake, if nothing else.
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TheLine
Professor
Posts: 5597
Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
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It’s hard being a Pennfan right now
10-19-20 04:24 PM - Post#315074
In response to palestra38
Given what happened to the Yale hockey team, the number of cases in football (an outdoor sport, mind you), and the fact that the Ivy Presidents (whatever we think of them) do have some of the world's best epidemiologists at their disposal, maybe it's OK to give them some benefit of the doubt in their decision? They certainly got it right in March.
Just saying.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32803
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: It’s hard being a Pennfan right now
10-19-20 04:31 PM - Post#315075
In response to TheLine
I was agreeing with that point of view, not disagreeing.
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TheLine
Professor
Posts: 5597
Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
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It’s hard being a Pennfan right now
10-19-20 04:40 PM - Post#315076
In response to palestra38
I know.
That comment was in agreement with you, Mike and Jeff. Because this board has no rep feature.
Sports are the reward of a functional society
Edited by TheLine on 10-19-20 04:44 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3584
Reg: 02-15-15
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10-19-20 04:48 PM - Post#315077
In response to palestra38
The issue is the incredible communicability of the virus, especially indoors. The NBA was unable to continue without a bubble. You can't do a bubble for the NCAA, absent a tournament format.
Now if they wanted to do a national tournament with all teams in a bubble setting, I'm all for it. If the Ivies want to do a tournament in a bubble setting, I'm all for it. But otherwise, the risk is intolerable.
P38: Risk of what? No fans and a bunch of 18-22 yr olds who get tested in advance seems like a tolerable outcome. European basketball is happening, with testing and contact tracing. Also, viruses (ALL Viruses) are incredibly communicable and spread indoors more easily. We don't shut down economies and lives because of that.
The Ivies don't have exclusive access to the world's leading doctors so that's not a coherent excuse.
MrJ brings up some valid points on this. Do you have a link to the CDC report you reference?
I am not predisposed in my thinking on this, I am weighing the arguments on both sides. Right now I see enough people figuring out the safety and public health concerns to move forward at some level. That may change, but Covid Hysteria can't rule forever can it?
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32803
Reg: 11-21-04
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10-19-20 05:02 PM - Post#315078
In response to PennFan10
I didn't say I had a CDC study, but here's one from Harvard. https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news ...
The problem is that if you don't go bubble, the players are constantly exposed and in basketball, they will inevitably expose others. While that may not result in death, it will mean the possibility of not being able to field a team if 5-6 players come down with it--you saw that baseball had to go to a 60 player roster to survive a season with strict protocols but no bubble. And, of course, if they are spreading the virus among themselves, they are spreading it to others who are more disposed to poor consequences.
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hoopsfan
Masters Student
Posts: 644
Reg: 12-26-04
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10-19-20 05:13 PM - Post#315079
In response to PennFan10
As much as I will deeply miss hoops if the season is cancelled, for reasons of public safety I'd understand. I think that is the position all of us will take.
Whatever the decision is I hope it is a deeply considered one. For instance I periodically check the Covid dashboards for universities in my area. Harvard in the last 7 days has tested 16,000+ and has a positivity rate of .08. Northeastern tests every other day and by now has tested nearly 300,00 times. Their positivity rate for the last 7 days is .04.
Northeastern has had all its students on campus and has been extremely aggressive about testing, tracing and isolating when called for. They are also planning to play a conference only schedule and on their twitter site you can see videos of their guys shooting in the gym with masks on. OTOH we know the Ivies are mostly sans students totally sans competition.
It will be very interesting to see if they indeed can have a safe and full season. Only time will tell. And if they do, will it be because in general they set their goals on managing for Covid in all aspects? And if the Ivies do not try, will it be because of whatever set of variables, they have set a context of greater caution overall?
I am not saying there is a right or wrong approach. But what is clear are is that there are different approaches being tried which in some ways will become a real-time experiment in public health management.
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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10-19-20 05:15 PM - Post#315080
In response to PennFan10
I’ll have to go back and dig it up. You might be able to find it faster through google, but I want to say it was in the CDC’s Morbidity and Mortality report from a couple weeks ago.
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TheLine
Professor
Posts: 5597
Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
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10-19-20 05:20 PM - Post#315083
In response to mrjames
Perhaps this one?
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm 6939e4.ht...
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Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts: 3770
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
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10-19-20 05:37 PM - Post#315086
In response to TheLine
I agree that not playing intercollegiate sports will be regrettable, but if the conference concludes that, for the sake of the health of the public, the participants, and the spectators it is the prudent thing to do, I'm with them. And there's another consideration: intercollegiate athletics is one of the most visible activities in which a university engages. As such, like it or not, it's how those institutions set an example. It is important for institutions of higher learning to model responsible behavior.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3584
Reg: 02-15-15
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10-19-20 05:37 PM - Post#315087
In response to TheLine
That looks like it. Thanks
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3584
Reg: 02-15-15
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10-19-20 05:54 PM - Post#315088
In response to PennFan10
Here's the one that references later dates for older/at risk groups:
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm 6941e1.ht...
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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10-19-20 07:18 PM - Post#315090
In response to PennFan10
I knew there’d be faster sleuthing here. I read a lot of these, so I can never quite keep track. Not something I should be doing given that this stuff all gives me tremendous anxiety but have to stay on top of this stuff.
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