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Username Post: This proves that Covid can be managed at Universities        (Topic#24887)
Streamers 
Professor
Posts: 8141
Streamers
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
11-21-20 02:20 PM - Post#317154    

At least ones with a semi-isolated campus and ample resources like 5 Ivies

 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 21081

Reg: 12-02-04
Re: This proves that Covid can be managed at Universities
11-25-20 11:33 PM - Post#317323    
    In response to Streamers

I have to say, though, that I'm watching the onslaught of games on tonight and I just don't get it.

This can only end badly.

 
bradley 
PhD Student
Posts: 1842

Age: 74
Reg: 01-15-16
Re: This proves that Covid can be managed at Universities
11-26-20 07:00 PM - Post#317337    
    In response to Streamers

After watching a very good Gonzaga team beat Kansas in Fort Myers with some people in the stands and several other games w/o people in the stands, it is disappointing that there will be no IL BB this year. It makes one wonder if the IL should have at least given it try as the IL or any league could shut it down if need be.

Time will tell if the IL decision makers made the correct decision. They obviously have more information than we have but .....

 
mrjames 
Professor
Posts: 6062

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: This proves that Covid can be managed at Universities
11-26-20 08:18 PM - Post#317341    
    In response to bradley

There have been 37 games cancelled over the first two days of the season. While there have been far more that have actually been played, I just can’t imagine that the Ivy League would have wanted to be party to that (granted it likely wouldn’t have been, as it probably would have held to conf only play, and I’m not sure that, for instance, Yale would have made it back into a phase where it could have played by now anyway).

If the extent of things ends up being just scheduling inconvenience (games being cancelled/postponed), then Ivy fans may indeed regret not playing this season, but just imagine if they start tracing cases back to on-court spread and the like. It’s just a lot of risk to mitigate regardless of whether the rest of D1 ends up getting away with it relatively unscathed.

 
bradley 
PhD Student
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Age: 74
Reg: 01-15-16
Re: This proves that Covid can be managed at Universities
11-26-20 09:31 PM - Post#317342    
    In response to mrjames

As the LA Times article suggests, some universities have handled the situation very well and others have not. A reasonable question exists if the IL schools could have effectively managed thru the COVID crises without relying on remote learning. An easy answer might be simply say no versus a more nuanced approach. As to playing basketball, it is probably even more debatable but the IL decision makers might have made the correct call although it will be interesting to see what happens to Northeast basketball teams over time.



 
Streamers 
Professor
Posts: 8141
Streamers
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
11-27-20 10:14 AM - Post#317357    
    In response to bradley

Aside from the sports aspect, I think the schools that have managed to deliver a more normalized college experience this year for the same money as those who have not have a significant academic recruiting advantage, at least for the near future. I know it would impact my thinking as a college student parent if I were considering that decision now.

 
bradley 
PhD Student
Posts: 1842

Age: 74
Reg: 01-15-16
11-27-20 10:58 AM - Post#317360    
    In response to Streamers

A friend's son was deciding on which law school to attend. It came down to 3 good law schools in the Northeast with pros and cons for each school. At the end of the day, he picked the school most likely to have classroom learning.

Fortunately, he made the correct call although there was an element of luck. Most of his classes have been in the classroom and not remote. He could not imagine being a 1st year law student with all classes being remote. His experience between classroom and remote learning confirmed his selection criteria.

Schools, like the Ivies, that clearly have the resources might have taken a different track but it is what it is.

 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 21081

Reg: 12-02-04
11-27-20 11:25 AM - Post#317361    
    In response to Streamers

  • Streamers Said:
Aside from the sports aspect, I think the schools that have managed to deliver a more normalized college experience this year for the same money as those who have not have a significant academic recruiting advantage, at least for the near future. I know it would impact my thinking as a college student parent if I were considering that decision now.



As the parent of two high school senior boys, it has been a very challenging process. It has probably been even worse for my sons. We were only able to visit one campus in person, and that tour was strictly outdoors. So no sense of what the "student experience" is like, especially when, for the most part, at least a portion of the students are not even on campus and you can't spend any time with the ones who are there.

And really no way to assess at this point what it will be like come the fall. One thing is for sure--if things are pretty much status quo then for sure they will be enrolled in a SUNY school (which they might end up enrolling in anyways even if things get more "normal") because there is no way we are paying private college tuition if all learning will be online.


 
Streamers 
Professor
Posts: 8141
Streamers
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
11-27-20 11:54 AM - Post#317362    
    In response to bradley

  • bradley Said:

Fortunately, he made the correct call although there was an element of luck. Most of his classes have been in the classroom and not remote. He could not imagine being a 1st year law student with all classes being remote.



I have a nephew who is a 1-L who wholeheartedly agrees with this.

 
Streamers 
Professor
Posts: 8141
Streamers
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
11-27-20 12:01 PM - Post#317363    
    In response to penn nation

  • penn nation Said:

And really no way to assess at this point what it will be like come the fall. One thing is for sure--if things are pretty much status quo then for sure they will be enrolled in a SUNY school (which they might end up enrolling in anyways even if things get more "normal") because there is no way we are paying private college tuition if all learning will be online.



In some ways, I feel your pain. My college soph. is having a rough time spending what will be (at least) 18 months at home after one enjoyable year of the traditional college experience. After taking a couple of 'cheap' online transferable courses this semester, she has decided to re-enroll at her school and go the online route for the spring. She learned the hard way that not all online experiences are created equal. Not saying SUNY would be sub-standard, just that there are many SUNY campuses and programs, and it pays to be discerning about online programs & courses as well.

 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 21081

Reg: 12-02-04
11-27-20 12:32 PM - Post#317364    
    In response to Streamers

I hear you.

At this point, my kids have experienced both fully remote and fully in-person (with masks) instruction, as well as Zoom in-person (with masks) in high school in certain classes.

They don't love any of the options, and frankly I cannot blame them. They've had about the best you can have in terms of these kinds of experiences (at least from a school doing what it can, and our being able to provide the resources for our kids to leverage technology for them) and it has still taken a tremendous toll on them in various ways.

So from my perspective, even the best of the online options in college will be far less than ideal. It certainly would not justify paying private college tuition.

They are both applying to a few SUNY schools in any event, and would have even had COVID not existed.

 
mrjames 
Professor
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Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
11-27-20 01:57 PM - Post#317367    
    In response to penn nation

Definitely apply and pursue things as normal. It’s very, very likely the world will be pretty safe and normal by fall 21-22 classes. And if it isn’t, most schools allow for a gap year, but at least the college of choice would be locked in. Transferring in is much tougher than applying out of high school in most cases.

 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 21081

Reg: 12-02-04
This proves that Covid can be managed at Universities
11-27-20 03:39 PM - Post#317371    
    In response to mrjames

Agreed. Of course, the conundrum with any gap year option (not that my boychicks are terribly interested in one at the moment) is that the more impacted the college experience, the more impacted the gap year experience as well.

Their school normally spends two months during senior year in Poland and Israel. This year, if their school is able to go at all, it would only be to Israel and they would have to build in the first two weeks as mandatory quarantine time. At any rate, that would serve as some gap year/transition time.

Edited by penn nation on 11-27-20 03:40 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
mrjames 
Professor
Posts: 6062

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: This proves that Covid can be managed at Universities
11-28-20 09:38 AM - Post#317380    
    In response to penn nation

More from a handful of Ivy players:

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sports/high-s...

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 32680

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: This proves that Covid can be managed at Universities
11-28-20 10:13 AM - Post#317381    
    In response to mrjames

I will never understand the unwillingness to put together an Ivy Bubble. We will lose the majority of our upperclassmen, and will trend down 100 spots or more when we get on the court again. But I'm not looking to restart the argument other than saying that the consequences of being the only conference to sit it out will be lasting.

 
bradley 
PhD Student
Posts: 1842

Age: 74
Reg: 01-15-16
Re: This proves that Covid can be managed at Universities
11-28-20 10:54 AM - Post#317383    
    In response to palestra38

I have a number of friends who were very surprised that the IL did not even make an attempt to start up the season and a bubble would have been a conservative approach. The money was always there to give it a try and they could have always shut it down if need be.

I think of a player like Llewellyn who was strongly recruited to play at his father's university, Wake Forest, but decided on the Tigers. He probably is thinking about playing beyond college and this year will be a wasted year for him from a BB perspective. I wonder what he is thinking but he seems like an outstanding young man.

IL decision is going to set back IL BB in the short-term and we will see about the intermediate term.

 
mrjames 
Professor
Posts: 6062

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: This proves that Covid can be managed at Universities
11-28-20 11:12 AM - Post#317384    
    In response to bradley

I don’t understand the premise of this “setback” narrative. It would be one thing if we had players transferring that had 21-22 Ivy eligibility remaining, but so far, that hasn’t happened. The seniors entering the transfer portal would have entered regardless, as they’ll have NCAA eligibility if they played this year or not, but wouldn’t have Ivy eligibility either way. Transfers like Forrest and Cambridge left prior to COVID-19. And the 2021 class is basically locked in, and I haven’t heard of any decommits over the decision not to play. Maybe there will be an impact on the 2022 class, but I doubt it as the NCAA remains in a dead period, so it’s not like folks in that class can be visiting for games on unofficials.

Certainly things can change, and if they do, then we can discuss the impacts of a talent drain, but so far, the only net effect is that 21-22 will be slightly better than it otherwise would have been, as Yale should be stronger with Swain using his final year of eligibility in 21-22.

As far as I know, Llewellyn would have missed substantial time this year regardless and would have thusly likely had a grad year to spend elsewhere anyway.

And it would have been extremely difficult to set up an impermeable bubble in any realistic way. It’s a nice theoretical idea, but much more difficult in practice than the hand wavy support for it here.

 
SomeGuy 
Professor
Posts: 6391

Reg: 11-22-04
Re: This proves that Covid can be managed at Universities
11-28-20 01:03 PM - Post#317387    
    In response to mrjames

I think you are presuming that talent has the same value regardless of whether a player gets to play this season. While the Ivies will in a sense have two classes coming in at once in 21-22, for everyone else in college basketball, they will be getting the same number of incoming recruits between the 2 years, and half of them will have a season of division one basketball. We often see the biggest jump for for players between freshman and sophomore years. We won’t be getting that jump next year. It doesn’t just magically happen at that age. It involves playing your first year of college basketball and getting the training and support that comes with it. So for this year’s freshman, they will be in a sense a year behind. So the talent of this year’s class will in a sense be diminished, at least for a time.

I also think you may be applying the usual understanding of how incoming players replace graduating minutes each year. I think a lot of the statistical assumptions are based on a world where the seniors graduate every year. In other words, everyone has minutes to replace. Next year, that won’t be the case. With some very limited exceptions for guys going to the NBA, everyone else is going to return just about everyone. Only the Ivies will have minutes to replace.

This should actually be good for recruiting, because we will have less of a log jam than other schools. More kids will have an opportunity to play right away in the Ivy League for the next couple of years than in any other conference. But short term that will not be good for oncourt results.

 
SomeGuy 
Professor
Posts: 6391

Reg: 11-22-04
Re: This proves that Covid can be managed at Universities
11-28-20 01:35 PM - Post#317388    
    In response to mrjames

Is Langborg saying he will leave early? He said he would have two years of eligibility as a grad transfer. While he missed some time last year, he was nowhere close to a medical redshirt. If he plays his junior and senior years at Princeton, it looks to me like he should only have one year left.

Or am I misinterpreting how eligibility this year works? I thought that essentially this year doesn’t count toward eligibility, and everyone in school right now gets 4 years besides this year. Langborg’s statement could mean that everyone in school right now get five years of eligibility, with this year counting as one of the five if you play.

 
mrjames 
Professor
Posts: 6062

Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: This proves that Covid can be managed at Universities
11-28-20 02:28 PM - Post#317390    
    In response to SomeGuy

I'm not sure either, tbh. Doesn't make sense to me where that extra year is coming from, but he'd obviously be in a better position to know than I.

As for your other point... it's certainly fair to say that there might be a one-year bump to the overall quality of college basketball by having more seniors hanging around, but ultimately, beyond that the scholarship limits are what they are, so the world should come crashing back down on those schools by 22-23. So, in the ultra-short-term (21-22), the Ivies could be disadvantaged by other schools being temporarily better, but that should come back around with schools being less experienced in 22-23 and/or having a tougher time recruiting because they don't have available scholarships.

The Ivies were taking a step back anyway, because the 2016 class was so much more talented than the classes around it. With the talent the league brought in for 2020 and 2021 and the potential advantage it could have in a more limited scholarship environment in 2022, it's hard to argue that taking a year off delayed the reload to get back comfortably into the mid-teens or better as a league after a brief step back.

 
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