Ever True
Junior
Posts: 255
Age: 28
Reg: 02-02-15
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01-11-21 02:37 PM - Post#319007
In response to PennFan10
I'm sure that some will not agree with the framework of "racial capitalism" that this article uses or will feel that seven players is not a significant enough sample, but, nonetheless, this article was eye-opening to me: https://www.thedailybeast.com/players-rip-a-#%$@...
I wish that we had Ivy League basketball this year, but I'm glad that the league acted out of an abundance of caution. I look forward to a 2021-2022 basketball season where I can enjoy watching the Ivies play again with the knowledge that the student-athletes are not at risk of contracting a potentially life-changing, or even life-ending, virus.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2701
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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01-11-21 05:49 PM - Post#319051
In response to Ever True
A friend of mine who is an adminstrator in the NYC school system just let me know that their numbers are increasing dramatically and he can't understand why they opened after Thanksgiving.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32910
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-11-21 06:05 PM - Post#319058
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
I think that by over 90% here, no one thinks would should have attempted a normal schedule. But the bubble would have shown everyone else how things can be done right, and the Presidents blew it off with high sounding BS, such as the need to treat all students equally.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1905
Reg: 11-29-04
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01-11-21 09:14 PM - Post#319081
In response to palestra38
You've been repeating numerous times about the bubble - and I will be the first to say that a bubble would of course work. It's been proven. If you put healthy people in a bubble, they will not get sick. You aren't revealing anything new there.
Why you aren't getting any resonance is that it is a pipe dream. Can you name a college sport, college activity, or college academic program that has organized anything remotely resembling this? Athletes may be willing to do it and might even be grateful to, but it would be an inordinate burden on the schools to plan this, and it would be at the expense of the managerial time to plan basic academic programs for the whole school. I have some direct exposure to what it is taking for schools to function, and you just wouldn't believe the amount of work and decisions to make just to keep academic programs. How will we feed students safely? How will we care for our elder employees? Which employees will we fire if students aren't on campus (i.e. facilities personnel, transportation employees, etc.). How will we make the school budget work? Diverting that effort to make a bubble basketball season is a complete pipe dream, albeit one that could have worked if anyone focused on it.
I don't think any Ivy had any interest in doing this. The other NCAA schools have more of a financial incentive through TV contracts, which is the only reason college basketball is playing right now. You think the other schools are playing for the benefit of athletes? These schools have clearly have not paid and organized sufficiently the safety of the athletes and the downstream communities, so it's hard for me to believe that was their primary objective.
I fully recognize that society needs to make decisions about risk vs. reward of a pandemic, but I don't think you realize how hard it is to organize the things you would have hoped for - it would have been an unacceptable effort for the league to manage in the time it had - especially as numbers mushroomed. You can keep repeating "bubble, bubble, bubble" but it would be like me saying "vaccine, vaccine, vaccine" in time to save the season. It just wasn't going to happen, even though that would have worked too.
I think that by over 90% here, no one thinks would should have attempted a normal schedule. But the bubble would have shown everyone else how things can be done right, and the Presidents blew it off with high sounding BS, such as the need to treat all students equally.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32910
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-11-21 09:25 PM - Post#319084
In response to Penndemonium
Horse Manure. It was not at all difficult to bring men's and women's hockey and basketball to Cornell, WHERE THERE WERE NO STUDENTS, house them, feed them and pay a few officials to stay for 6 weeks.
It's just inconceivable how you make a simple set of arrangements into nuclear physics.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2701
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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01-11-21 09:37 PM - Post#319086
In response to palestra38
Priorities.
Bad Optics.
Poor principles.
Proof? It could be accomplished but they opted not to do it.
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rbg
Postdoc
Posts: 3068
Reg: 10-20-14
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This proves that Covid can be managed at Universities
01-11-21 10:43 PM - Post#319091
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
How will a one-city NCAA tournament work? This hockey conference offered a glimpse
https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketba ll/story...
- The National Collegiate Hockey Conference, an eight-team league stretching from Oxford, Ohio, to Colorado Springs, Colorado, played the first portion of its season in what it called a "pod," held in Omaha, Nebraska, from Dec. 1-21. The NCHC moved the entirety of its operations during that period to Omaha's Aksarben Village and Baxter Arena, a multipurpose facility that is typically home to the University of Nebraska Omaha's men's hockey program, as well as its basketball programs. NCHC commissioner Josh Fenton was charged with pulling together the event, as he tried to keep an entire season from falling apart.
"I think the goal from the start and the goal for the whole year is that we just want to keep playing hockey games and providing the competitive experiences that these guys want and deserve," Fenton told ESPN during the event. "I think the commitment you see from the membership prior to us getting here and now that we're here, with everybody following the protocol and understanding what they have to do to ensure that we can continue to play games -- that's kind of how our membership has always operated." -
- Every person termed a "Tier 1" participant, which were those essential to the tournament -- players, coaches, on-ice officials and conference staff -- had to undergo testing upon arrival in Omaha. That included individuals who were confirmed to have previously been infected in the months prior, even though risk of reinfection is believed to be low. For those known to be infected at some point in the past year, additional testing was conducted to ensure there was no active virus remaining in their systems.
The NCHC successfully cleared all athletes from all eight schools for participation and did not postpone any scheduled games within the Pod -- going 38-for-38 in that respect over the three-week event. -
- Once the event was underway, teams were tested every game day, with those scheduled to play games early in the day undergoing testing the day before.
While there was no outside security to ensure players and staff were obeying protocols, each NCHC team had a designated compliance officer who had to report any issues to the league. Fenton received status updates from each team's compliance officer daily.
According to the NCHC, most of the issues were minor. Some were as simple as having to remind players to wear their masks. Players were expected to stay between the hotels and the arena. -
- Fulfilling academic requirements in a three-week bubble situation was another concern NCAA tournament participants will face.
North Dakota had finals scheduled in the middle of the NCHC event, and UND coach Brad Berry said players were able to consult with their university advisers from inside the pod. The coach also said he made it clear to all of the players that they needed to communicate with their professors before the event, and while it was ongoing, to stay up on assignments.
Nebraska Omaha made academic advisers available to players in the pod. Minnesota Duluth players Noah Cates and Hunter Lellig said they had to commandeer a suite in the hockey arena before practice to record their portion of a human resource management presentation.
"That was definitely a different kind of experience, but whatever it takes to play," Cates said. "I never thought I'd be doing a final presentation in Baxter Arena in Omaha, but we got it done and it's all good." -
Edited by rbg on 01-11-21 10:45 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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01-12-21 10:52 AM - Post#319110
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
A friend of mine who is an adminstrator in the NYC school system just let me know that their numbers are increasing dramatically and he can't understand why they opened after Thanksgiving.
They opened because zoom education is not good enough and ESPECIALLY hits people of color worse. Staying at home for a year is a disaster that FAR outweighs the risk to young children. It's not even close. it's not like no one would be getting sick if we were at home. The comparison is never "x people got sick in school to zero would have gotten sick otherwise".
Playing a game is debatable. Education of young children is not.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3590
Reg: 02-15-15
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01-12-21 11:03 AM - Post#319111
In response to Penndemonium
The other NCAA schools have more of a financial incentive through TV contracts, which is the only reason college basketball is playing right now.
I am pretty sure The Big South, The Southwest Athletic Conference, the Ohio Valley Conference, etc, etc, (who are all having seasons with double digit games played) are not playing games to generate revenue from TV contracts. Alos, many D3 schools have figured out how to play.
There is only 1 D1 conference in the country that didn't even try.
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: This proves that Covid can be managed at Universities
01-12-21 11:11 AM - Post#319113
In response to penn nation
I'm really sorry to hear that the public health "issue" "argument" doesn't seem sufficiently compelling for you, or, for that matter, many others. This dismissive attitude is certainly contributing to the predicament we continue to face today.
We're all in this boat together.
When I say the "public health" issue doesn't hold water to me, I wanted to take a week or two break because you're so aggressively annoying in this thread I needed to process it. Please read this and STFU with the shaming. https://twitter.com/zeynep/status/1348702 563986759...
Now, what I'd like to understand with respect to the public health issue: are we sure that playing basketball or football leads to more infections than not playing for both athletes and community?
Because the base case certainly is NOT zero. The base case is that these athletes are going to live their lives and, as young people do, socialize. So it seems plenty conceivable that it would be WORSE for the community if young people have nothing to keep them from contracting the virus. Peer pressure, constant testing, etc. might lead the athletes to make less risky decisions in terms of the virus.
In fact, the only people who would definitely be at risk there are the folks who are so scared of the virus, like PN, that they know they aren't going anywhere. I've certainly felt compassion for some athletes at bigger schools or in pro sports who would not want to play but feel forced to for their livelihood. This is mitigated at an Ivy school where playing a sport does not affect FA.
If there is data that shows that kids don't contract if there are no sports to play or that community spread is much worse, by all means, share it and this becomes moot. But NBA players went off during the offseason and like 10% of players contracted in 2 months.
All that said, I don't really want to play. But the paternalism is just enough.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21311
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: This proves that Covid can be managed at Universities
01-12-21 12:14 PM - Post#319122
In response to Jeff2sf
Don't know why you have to insult me to state your case, such as it is.
You're right--there's really no reason why these college football games would be anything to be worried about:
https://www.tmz.com/2021/01/12/alabama-fa ns-tuscal...
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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01-12-21 01:47 PM - Post#319125
In response to penn nation
not too worried about that happening in the ivies.
Because you're acting holier than thou. Knock that ish off.
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rbg
Postdoc
Posts: 3068
Reg: 10-20-14
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01-12-21 02:24 PM - Post#319128
In response to Jeff2sf
The question of transmission inside a game is something I have been thinking about, as well.
Here are two items I found this morning about this.
1/8/21
CIAC (Connecticut Interscholastic Athletic Conference) study: Low rate of COVID transmission due to sports in the fall
https://www.journalinquirer.com/sports/ciac-study-...
Contact tracing from local health officials found 7 out of 28,842 student-athletes tested positive as a direct result of sports played in the fall. There were more positive cases, but those were determined to have been caused by non-sport events.
133 of the 186 CIAC members (71.5%) responded to the survey.
The fall sports included boys & girls cross country (low risk), girls swimming (low risk), 7-on-7 non-tackle football (low-to-moderate risk), field hockey (moderate risk), boys & girls soccer (moderate risk), and girls volleyball (moderate risk).
There was no sports breakdown of the 7 sports-related positive cases.
For the overall fall positive cases (occurring in sporting & non-sporting events) among those students:
Modified Football: 14.695 of players
Boys soccer: 13.56%
Girls soccer: 10.43%
Girls volleyball: 9.62%
Field hockey: 6.33%
Boys cross country: 4.09%
Girls cross country: 2.94%
Girls swimming: 2.34%
11/13/20
COVID-19 transmission risk very low in elite sports events, says UK doctor
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-cor onavi...
- The chances of transmission of COVID-19 during professional sports events are very low, a British doctor researching the impact of the disease told Reuters on Friday.
Chris Orton, a research fellow at London’s Chelsea and Westminster hospital, said there have been no confirmed cases of COVID-19 transmission in the United Kingdom during a training session or live match. -
- Orton’s comments come on the same day Ireland midfielder Alan Browne tested positive for the novel coronavirus, less than 24 hours after playing against England in Thursday’s friendly at Wembley Stadium. -
- “As far as anyone is aware on a governmental, advisory panel level, there are no confirmed cases of transfer either in training or during sporting activities being performed,†said Orton.
“During the circumstances around the games is probably where you are much more likely to contract the virus. The risk to your own team is going to be greater than to the opposition but that does not mean that it is necessarily occurring on the pitch.†-
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32910
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-12-21 02:25 PM - Post#319129
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
"Bad optics" and "principles" may exist if you still believe this is 1956 and the original optics and principles of the Ivy League still exist. They do not.
Having a safe bubble season for our major sports would provide awesome optics about what we can do with our intelligence and resources. Shutting down loses us our upperclassmen, harms recruiting going forward, and makes us look like risk averse insurance companies. There was no good reason not to consider a bubble. Just no imagination--and nothing new on that front with the Ivy League.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21311
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: This proves that Covid can be managed at Universities
01-12-21 04:02 PM - Post#319135
In response to Jeff2sf
If there is data that shows that kids don't contract if there are no sports to play or that community spread is much worse, by all means, share it and this becomes moot.
I see that you didn't respond to the NYTimes Magazine piece I posted here a couple of weeks ago which had plenty of data about this very point.
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TheLine
Professor
Posts: 5597
Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
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This proves that Covid can be managed at Universities
01-12-21 04:48 PM - Post#319136
In response to penn nation
Anecdotally that's my experience at my daughter's high school, which is full time in school learning except for quarantined students.
There were a small number (less than 10) of cases while athletic teams were still operational. None since NJ shut down high school athletics.
COVID numbers in my region overall have correlated quite well with holidays. Went up right after Jewish holidays, assisted heavily by Orthodox community in Lakewood, then dipped until a week after Thanksgiving, when numbers popped significantly. Not enough of a breather to Christmas from there.
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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01-12-21 04:50 PM - Post#319137
In response to penn nation
I didn't. as a rule i don't read 20 minute articles that don't excerpt. But to help you out, I just did.
seems like the bulk of your case comes down to the below paragraph. But it's not convincing. It's only convincing to you because you're a shamer. I find it unlikely that these college students partied BECAUSE of the game. I think they decided they were going to party on most weekends and then worked backwards to find a reason to party. Now, I'm somewhat open to the idea broached earlier in the article that this created a permission structure. That all the kids and adults were sitting idly by, properly social distancing and then when they saw football was permitted, they decided that partying must also be permitted. But I'm gonna need a little more put into that one.
Also, none of this relates to ivy basketball not played in front of fans. The idea of being social with ivy basketball and students is laughable.
"But the cost for that will never be tallied. How many of those Saturday afternoons spent watching football games with friends bear some responsibility for the 100,000 confirmed Covid-related deaths around America since the first snap of a Big Ten game this season? And because we’re still learning about this novel virus, the damage it wreaked on hundreds of players may not become evident for years. The lasting effects of the 2020 college season are unknowable — and for some percentage of Americans, they are beside the point. Eventually, even the most circumspect of fans will return to congregate in bars and living rooms. And the next time a quarterback in Ohio Stadium takes a snap and rolls out while looking toward the end zone, the voices of a hundred thousand spectators will shout as one."
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1905
Reg: 11-29-04
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01-13-21 01:59 AM - Post#319165
In response to PennFan10
That is not true. Each conference has its own television contracts, and some of these conferences may not have massive contracts. You might be surprised by some though, as regional networks still need sports content and some small conferences may still have regional fan bases. Beyond that, though, the NCAA basketball tournament revenue (estimated over $700M) gets split between conferences and schools. While the exact splits of schools are determined by conference, it is often even per school within a conference. Conferences that have teams advance further get a larger share (which would generally not be the Ivy League). At a minimum, every school gets a few hundred thousand from the tournament. A single cinderella team can bring home millions for EVERY school in the conference. Furthermore, the NCAA would have a massive deficit if the tournament did not occur. Would other NCAA programs need to be cut without the tournament? Would colleges be asked to subsidize the NCAA? NCAA income is often a bigger percentage of sports revenue for smaller schools than bigger ones that have fat conference TV contracts. It doesn't take very much revenue to be important for colleges. Keep in mind that for each bit of revenue lost, they have to decide what to cut, as almost all are non-profit and have reasonably balanced operating budgets. Some people on this board think that all of this is so easy. Why do you think Stanford, one of the richest schools, canceled 11 sports teams? Jobs are being lost and students are losing their sport forever - not just for this year. Schools are having to refund certain expenses - dorms, meal plans, etc., and are having to decide whether to fire, furlough, or take losses to offset the loss of revenues. These budgets are massive. Do you think that the Penn Hospital's earnings were affected by Covid-19, especially for all of its medical specialists? Is philanthropy going to be there to support grants? If not, should researchers be fired? How much financial aid should they provide in an unpredictable year? Should they keep buildings open and incur operating expenses when most students are remote? Should they then fire security, buildings and grounds people? Should they pay field hockey coaches if the season is canceled? Should they keep the stadium open and maintained if sports are canceled? Do they need to reduce enrollment to accommodate in-person learning? How should elderly faculty be accommodated? Should they be paid if they can't attend? What kind of health policies need to be implemented? There is so much more going on at Universities than basketball. At the Ivies in particular, they take far greater importance and they can probably save money, avoid controversy, and avoid unknown downstream health risks. They also avoid a phalanx of protest from other athletes if basketball is the only sport of the season that is allowed to play. In a year of exploding covid numbers, basketball is as much risk, expense and nuisance for the ivies than reward. They won't even have enough basketball revenue with covid to pay the people to keep the Palestra open, let alone pay for a bubble. Should that bum out many of us on this board? Sure. But saying they could have done it is useless. While true, they also could have brought every students to campus safely all year if they were confident they could get all of their health policies right in time. It was all possible, but it just wasn't going to happen. If you REALLY put yourself in the shoes of an Ivy President, you probably have come to the same decision. If not, it is likely biased by your love of college basketball. Our Ivy Presidents would do so many things differently if they shared our love of the sport. They just don't, and that is why there is no season and they were never close to a bubble - ever. That is why I think it is ridiculous to pine on about it.
The other NCAA schools have more of a financial incentive through TV contracts, which is the only reason college basketball is playing right now.
I am pretty sure The Big South, The Southwest Athletic Conference, the Ohio Valley Conference, etc, etc, (who are all having seasons with double digit games played) are not playing games to generate revenue from TV contracts. Alos, many D3 schools have figured out how to play.
There is only 1 D1 conference in the country that didn't even try.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1905
Reg: 11-29-04
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01-13-21 03:29 AM - Post#319167
In response to Penndemonium
That was a lot to type. The main point above was that this was a business decision. It wasn't a decision based on what could be done. It wasn't about basketball. It wasn't about the basketball players' individual interests. It certainly wasn't about alumni fans. It was about revenue, costs, liability, appearances (from a health and fairness standpoint), and perhaps the advice they were getting about health from their expert panels.
I'm not on a soap box about spread of covid-19 (though I have opinions on that). I have agreed a bubble could have worked. It is possible to organize basketball safely. Yes, there is health detriment from people staying home, but university presidents aren't responsible for people's declining health at home. They are responsible for the healthy environment and cost of health services of students on campus.
Other schools came up with different choices, and I'm sure they were also being rational. Each has their own financial and operating considerations. Each are impacted differently from the loss of basketball. The Ivies were not negligent or illogical in their choice.
I bring this up because I am involved with a school and many just have no idea where this stacks in a truly insane list of considerations that needed to be solved. For some, the equation is clearly the other way. Even many smaller schools have regional TV contracts that they will breach, and they could lose NCAA money too. That may have been a factor in their choices. They also just probably prioritize sports differently. The fact that many were doing distanced learning probably didn't help.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32910
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-13-21 08:32 AM - Post#319169
In response to Penndemonium
I do not believe financial considerations (in terms of the cost of putting together the bubble and playing the games) were any factor whatsoever. Properly marketed, the only college basketball bubble would have had a built in viewing and betting market. It would have made money when all is said and done.
But liability worries and ridiculous "perceptions" of the fake Ivy League ideal shot it down before it even was considered. And that's what bothers me. We need to thoroughly revise the Ivy agreement and bring it into the 2020s.
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