Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1905
Reg: 11-29-04
|
This proves that Covid can be managed at Universities
01-13-21 12:17 PM - Post#319185
In response to palestra38
Again, this it’s wrong. How much money do you think the ivies make on gambling? Who will pay them? Sports betting data and results are generated by a Netherlands based company that puts one person with an iPad to keep score and betting statistics watching a game. I’ve met with them. They are not paying the schools. Yes they could have marketed streaming viewers, but the Ivy League did such a fine job with that with the old streaming service. ESPN already owns rights with the league, and my guess is that the league didn’t get much for it - they just wanted to take running sports media of their own plates and provide coverage so people like us would stop complaining. Everyone is so convinced they know what’s right, but they have not seen the school budget. They have not seen financial budgets of a tournament, with no tickets sold. They have not seen how many other jobs and programs universities are fighting for right now. They have also not seen the forecasts by their health experts of how many will get sick or die as a result of their actions. The ivies made a decision with all of that data, and I don’t think it was close. They may have struggled with it, but the choice was clear. Why didn’t other conferences make a bubble instead of the way they are handling it? I’m not aware of a single conference that did it, even though it definitely would have been possible somewhere in the country. Is that enough evidence? You keep bringing up hockey. I am guessing that hockey budgets had a completely different set of issues. Perhaps they would have had to cancel their hockey programs and fire coaches without a tournament. Perhaps they needed to honor specific contracts or earn enough to keep athletes’ scholarships. No one has done it for basketball.
Real jobs are being lost, real lives are being lost or put at risk, and none of us even knows the long term effects of covid. Money is being lost at institutions that don’t know how to deal with an unbalanced budget. People are complaining that students are not on campus. People are complaining if they are. Students are dealing with visa issues. Labor unions are complaining about safety, pay, and job security. Meanwhile, the schools still needed to figure out how to run classes well enough in distance or hybrid style. I’m not a bit surprised by the decisions.
I am also mourning the loss of the season like all of you. The real reason I would have liked to see a season is simply Jelani Williams. Still, regardless of our political views and beliefs about covid, we really need to get a life away from this!
I do not believe financial considerations (in terms of the cost of putting together the bubble and playing the games) were any factor whatsoever. Properly marketed, the only college basketball bubble would have had a built in viewing and betting market. It would have made money when all is said and done.
But liability worries and ridiculous "perceptions" of the fake Ivy League ideal shot it down before it even was considered. And that's what bothers me. We need to thoroughly revise the Ivy agreement and bring it into the 2020s.
|
PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3590
Reg: 02-15-15
|
01-13-21 12:29 PM - Post#319187
In response to Penndemonium
The student athletes deserve better. Their lives, during the 4-5 years they play, revolve around being a student AND being an athlete. There are different priorities and agendas for each school. As complicated as you'd like to make it, the fact remains that 357 schools play D1 Basketball and all but about 12 (8 of them in the IL) have figured out how to play a season right now.
|
palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32910
Reg: 11-21-04
|
Re: This proves that Covid can be managed at Universities
01-13-21 12:45 PM - Post#319188
In response to Penndemonium
20 minutes of hysterical typing doesn't change the fact that at no greater cost than a regular season, given there would be no travel, we could have had a bubble at student-less Cornell while the student athletes could have continued to take their virtual classes.
And even if it cost a few hundred thousand dollars more (which I doubt), this is the Ivy League--they have the money. It has nothing to do with anything you mention. And frankly, raising all the problems with society and business relating to the pandemic is why so many people are p.issed off. We run a completely risk averse society without any weighing of options and possible outcomes. That is what has destroyed business and lives as much as the pandemic itself. The fact is that we blew it a year ago, when there was a chance to contain it. At this point, with the closures that destroy businesses, we are losing 4000 people a day. Ivy basketball and hockey won't change that number an iota. So let's keep our eye on the issue and not irrelevant fears.
|
Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1905
Reg: 11-29-04
|
01-13-21 02:32 PM - Post#319191
In response to palestra38
OK. You're 100% right. You've completely convinced me. I was all wrong, and nothing I said had ANY merit. You win. You also get the winning last word, as it must be. Congratulations.
|
palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32910
Reg: 11-21-04
|
01-13-21 02:49 PM - Post#319192
In response to Penndemonium
From hysteria to passive aggressiveness. You're a piece of work. Try going back to your post and tell me a single fact that you stated there. I'm happy to debate facts.
|
Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts: 4008
Reg: 11-23-04
|
01-13-21 05:56 PM - Post#319197
In response to palestra38
I agree with p'38 that a bubble might have worked for BB. I often do agree with him. However, I doubt the Presidents would consider a bubble for one Winter sport or even a few. Wouldn't you have to do it for all Winter teams, and perhaps Spring as well? I think the League made the correct decision.
|
Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1905
Reg: 11-29-04
|
This proves that Covid can be managed at Universities
01-13-21 09:59 PM - Post#319215
In response to Old Bear
P38 says I haven't offered facts. He said the ivies could have earned money from gambling. I can name the exact company (SportRadar) which is the biggest sports betting data company, and they don't pay a cent to our schools. One of your arguments for generating revenue has been obliterated. The league does not have access to betting revenue.
He says they easily could have done the bubble at Cornell. None of us knows what was said at the meetings, but here's a fact. Cornell was in the room and didn't convince them to pursue this option. They could have had the bubble in my living room too, but that wasn't going to happen. That is an absolute fact.
He says it wouldn't have cost much more to do a bubble. He's overlooking that this is as much about lost revenue as additional costs. Here are some facts: Basketball revenue will be lower in a bubble than in prior years. Here's another. Nat Graham is sitting at a security desk in a building right now while he makes his recruiting calls. This is how his job is being saved this year while the school makes its budget.
- Other facts:
- Even smaller conferences (Big South and Ohio Valley Conference) have long term ESPN athletics contracts.
- The NCAA basketball revenue (estimated at $700M) would be split with conferences and schools and many had a lot to lose if there was no tournament. The TV contracts require the games be played.
- Stanford, one of the richest schools, has canceled 11 sports.
- Schools are dealing with lost revenue from housing and food.
- People are dying, jobs are being lost, and schools are dealing with a lot of other issues, etc.
- I also invite any of you to challenge the following conjecture:
- No one on the group has seen all of the budgets for the schools, athletics, and a bubble.
You don't have to agree with the Ivy decision. You don't have to agree with me. But are those enough facts P38? If all you're seeing is still horse manure maybe you should pull your head out...
|
palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32910
Reg: 11-21-04
|
Re: This proves that Covid can be managed at Universities
01-13-21 10:14 PM - Post#319216
In response to Penndemonium
I need not respond to hysteria. No, you have cited no facts. The fact is that a bubble would result in no harm. I never said almost anything that you supposedly say I said.
But it isn't worth responding further. You are emotionally overwrought with the idea that because people are dying from covid, we shouldn't attempt a safe season. It's just a ridiculous argument. (" People are dying, jobs are being lost, and schools are dealing with a lot of other issues, etc.") Do you realize how ridiculous you sound?
We lose money on sports every year---we wouldn't lose more by a bubble. But money should not be the issue for the richest universities in the USA. Now just cool out and stop making this your life purpose to criticize the idea of pursuing a bubble. It didn't happen, because Ivy Presidents agree with you that it will offend those with sensibilities that when people are dying, no one should do anything.
|
Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1905
Reg: 11-29-04
|
Re: This proves that Covid can be managed at Universities
01-13-21 10:20 PM - Post#319217
In response to palestra38
So which of my supposed facts do you dispute? You've said I've provided none. Go ahead and pick out a single one to disprove.
I'm not overwrought. I'm just sick of hearing bubble bubble bubble. I actually would have been fine if the league decided to have a season, in fact. I just don't think I can condemn their decision.
I need not respond to hysteria. No, you have cited no facts. The fact is that a bubble would result in no harm. I never said almost anything that you supposedly say I said.
But it isn't worth responding further. You are emotionally overwrought with the idea that because people are dying from covid, we shouldn't attempt a safe season. It's just a ridiculous argument. (" People are dying, jobs are being lost, and schools are dealing with a lot of other issues, etc.") Do you realize how ridiculous you sound?
We lose money on sports every year---we wouldn't lose more by a bubble. But money should not be the issue for the richest universities in the USA. Now just cool out and stop making this your life purpose to criticize the idea of pursuing a bubble.
|
palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32910
Reg: 11-21-04
|
Re: This proves that Covid can be managed at Universities
01-13-21 10:45 PM - Post#319218
In response to Penndemonium
Just re-read the statement I highlighted.What on earth do the people dying from Covid have to do with whether the Ivies should have a season. It's like criticizing people for not eating everything on their plate because children are starving in Biafra.
I always agreed that a regular season with travel didn't make sense. But to attack me for suggesting that we attempt a bubble for the reasons you set forth was hysterical and overwrought.
|
Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1905
Reg: 11-29-04
|
This proves that Covid can be managed at Universities
01-14-21 01:36 AM - Post#319220
In response to palestra38
It is simply a fact that people are dying and jobs are being lost. People on this board have different opinions on college basketball impact in that regard, but it is absolutely a factor as to why organizing a basketball bubble was not the key priority for Ivy universities. If you need proof that basketball was not their key priority, well... they canceled the season.
If my rant sounds like hysteria to you, please keep in mind I am not a university president or school administrator, but I'm very involved with an institution trying to figure out how to do everything right. The Bubble bubble talk simply got under my skin because you have no idea how hard the Pandemic is on schools. Seeing this on the front lines, I can say it is very hard to create a safe and effective learning environment in a pandemic is (while balancing a budget). All of the quick judgments about what they should have done are snap judgments. You have not seen what problems need to be dealt with. Doing everything the same as previous years (such as a normal basketball season) is the easy way. Making well reasoned changes is not.
On a personal note, I am fortunate enough to have not lost my most near and dear to Covid-19. But the people I do know who were lost - it was shocking how alive they were and how quickly they were gone. They are far more on the forefront of my mind than college basketball. I've been on this board since the usenet days. I think I'm going to sign off and reassess later when we have a real season of basketball. All of the arguments, stubborness, and name calling used to bother me some, but it was never a big deal. This is just too long to sustain with politics and world views looming in the background. I'll admit to being a part of the problem, though I'm not ready to apologize. This is just getting too tiring.
See you in late 2021, maybe.
|
palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32910
Reg: 11-21-04
|
Re: This proves that Covid can be managed at Universities
01-14-21 09:14 AM - Post#319224
In response to Penndemonium
Got it....see you then.
BTW, I have a kid in 1st year med school virtually so I am very aware of how difficult it is deal with the pandemic with all the competing interests and concerns. I just believe the ADs, who have been sweeping the floors to have something to do along with the coaches, could have gotten this done without overly bothering the academic administrators.
|
rbg
Postdoc
Posts: 3068
Reg: 10-20-14
|
01-14-21 11:17 PM - Post#319320
In response to palestra38
NBPA Cardiologist Opens Up About League’s COVID-19 Concerns
https://www.si.com/nba/2021/01/13/nbpa-c ardiologis...
- Dr. Matthew Martinez: We do. Initially our concern was based primarily on hospitalized, sicker patients with COVID-19, and we were concerned about its effect on the athlete heart, given the potential for myocarditis—or damage to the heart muscle—being a cause of sudden death in athletes. And what we now know is that the prevalence of cardiac involvement among athletes, specifically professional athletes and specifically the NBA players, is unusual. It’s rare.
And you’re gonna see that data very soon. We hope to be submitting it by the end of the week. The paper is written. I’m going to dance around exactly what it showed intentionally, but from all the professional leagues that we collaborated [with] in really an unprecedented fashion, what we found is the amount of myocardial involvement was much lower than expected, and really not a whole lot different from what you might expect for viruses in general. -
- But it taught us a lot about who needs to be evaluated. And what we found in general was we’re not seeing a lot of cardiac involvement amongst asymptomatic or mild cases of COVID-19. We were also better able to identify what separates a mild case from a moderate case and a severe case, which is pretty straightforward. If you’ve got low oxygen levels and you require a hospital stay, then you’re a severe case.
If you’re a mild case, we now define this as symptoms above the neck, so loss of taste or smell, headache, those would be considered above-the-neck symptoms and mild. Moderate symptoms we describe as fevers, chills, if you’re breathless, if you have chest pressure, you fall in that moderate group. -
- SI: Given those findings, has the NBA’s safety protocol process changed at all from what it was during the bubble?
Martinez: If we test you and find SARS-CoV-2, that you’ve been infected by the virus, then we do three tests. One, an electrocardiogram or an EKG. Two, an echocardiogram, which is an ultrasound that looks at the heart muscle itself. And the third is a blood test known as troponin. And that has not changed from the bubble until now.
Even though we know that we’re going to find nothing in the vast majority in that asymptomatic and mild group, we still feel like it’s a little early to be not performing those tests on this group of elite athletes, entirely because we want to make sure the player is safe. We know after the bubble that we haven’t had any significant or bad outcome, and we’re probably not going to identify any new findings, but until we have better data—six months, a year, two years from now—we want to make sure the athletes are safe. -
SI: Beyond myocarditis, what are some other possible COVID-19-related conditions you check for and that players might be impacted by?
Martinez: So when we think of COVID-19 in the heart, we’re thinking of the muscle disease, the sack around the heart. We know that in hospitalized patients, in non-athletes, we’re seeing clots and thrombosis related to COVID-19. It creates an increased risk for clotting. We know that NBA players clot. But we have not seen an increased signal in the NBA or really any of the professional sports that we’ve seen.
And then the other (question) is how is it affecting the lungs? Are we seeing lung damage or increased pressure inside the lungs related to COVID-19 from scarring and damage to the lungs themselves? We have not seen that in any of the athletes we’re screening, but it’s certainly a concern.
SI: With games back, players no longer inside a bubble, and the pandemic still raging as strong as it ever has, what do you worry the most about, for NBA players?
MM: So far the safety data is reassuring, and I think I’m less concerned now than I was a year ago. I feel very comfortable with the protocol we have in place. I think we’re at a much better place than we were before because we learned a lot in the last six months to a year. And I’m not sure that I have any specific concerns at this point. I’m very proud of the protocol, I think it’s worked very well. And I think that the players should be very satisfied that we’re evaluating them in completeness. -
|
HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2701
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
|
01-14-21 11:17 PM - Post#319321
In response to palestra38
A look at the Patriot League, from FanNation:
Look at the Patriot League, which began the year as a 10 team one division mid-major conference.
Because of COVID-issues, the Patriot split into two three-team and one four-team division based on geography, with a baseball style regular season schedule of multiple in-division games and selected out of division games.
Still, there have been aberrations because of postponed games, the most startling is that two teams from the Patriot Southern Division (American and Loyola-Maryland) will not play their FIRST game of the year until this weekend.
Conference games are held with players wearing masks during the games.
Both American and Loyola had games postponed in December and are currently 0-0
|
palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32910
Reg: 11-21-04
|
01-15-21 09:52 AM - Post#319326
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
I don't know why you are aiming this at me. At all times, I have opined that the only way to conduct a season was in a 6 week bubble. I never thought it was advisable to take the risks of a "normal" or even modified travel schedule outside of a bubble.
|
HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2701
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
|
01-15-21 08:53 PM - Post#319354
In response to palestra38
I've noticed.
I usually just post, I don't hit reply. The fact that my posts seem to always follow yours is merely a coincidence - or you're posting about your bubble a lot.
I've given up on holding the tournament at Mohegun Sun.
|
rbg
Postdoc
Posts: 3068
Reg: 10-20-14
|
01-17-21 01:53 AM - Post#319399
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
https://www.espn.com/womens-college-basket ball/sto...
- Baylor coach Kim Mulkey, who returned to the sideline Saturday for the first time since Dec. 19, said she is feeling OK physically after having experienced COVID-19. But when asked if she is concerned about this basketball season being completed, she didn't mince words.
"The answer is this: The season will continue on. It's called the almighty dollar," Mulkey said after the Bears lost 75-71 to Iowa State in Waco, Texas, ending the longest current homecourt winning streak in Division I women's basketball at 61 games. "The NCAA has to have the almighty dollar from the men's tournament. The almighty dollar is more important than the health and welfare of me, the players or anybody else."
"One conference does this, one conference does that. The CDC says this. Everybody is confused. I'm confused. I'm uncomfortable coaching. I understand, COVID is real. I've had it, come talk to me sometime. But I don't know ... all the calls and procedures, that's gonna go on and make it unusual, uncomfortable for every program. We're no different at Baylor." -
|
HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2701
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
|
01-17-21 11:23 AM - Post#319408
In response to rbg
So, only the Ivy League could afford to make the safest call. Not taking a health legitimate risk it if you don't have to seems to be a logical choice. Many have faced that dilemma with employment decisions. I believe Harvard was set to allow 40% back to campus last fall but only 25% accepted the offer.
|
rbg
Postdoc
Posts: 3068
Reg: 10-20-14
|
01-18-21 03:23 PM - Post#319486
In response to rbg
UConn's Gino Auriemma responds to the comments about playing during COVID from Baylor's Kim Mulkey.
https://www.espn.com/womens-college-basket ball/sto...
- "Talking to coaches around the country. Almost nobody gets infected by playing basketball," Auriemma said on a Zoom call. "I think the number of people that contract COVID by playing against somebody, it's been like almost zero. Everything that's happened has happened off the court.
"So you mean to tell me these players wouldn't be getting COVID? Matter of fact, coaches are getting COVID at home. If you ask these players, 'Do you want to play, or do you not want to play?' except for a few minor instances, ask the players and 100% of them are gonna say, 'I want to play.'" -
|
PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3590
Reg: 02-15-15
|
01-18-21 04:35 PM - Post#319489
In response to rbg
I think Gino has it right. Anyone know the number of Ivy players that have contracted Covid while not playing? I'd bet a lot of money it's not zero. I think the data will show the schools that are playing are no worse off than the ones (Ivy League) not playing in terms of contracting or spreading Covid.
|
