penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
Reg: 12-02-04
|
01-17-22 09:39 PM - Post#333624
In response to palestra38
Charles did play briefly today but, as Princeton was not allowing anyone to take 3s, was rendered useless.
We have talent--just that 4 of our most talented players (Charles, MLL, Wang and Washington) aren't playing.
But the lethargy of this team today and in all of our games against Princeton over the last 3 seasons is totally unacceptable. I remember when Penn would refuse to lose to Princeton. I don't see that anymore.
|
palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32803
Reg: 11-21-04
|
01-17-22 09:48 PM - Post#333626
In response to SomeGuy
I don't know what game you were watching. We had terrible ball movement and repeatedly let Princeton get out with numbers against us. I would rather take bad shots from 3 and get back on defense than have the whole team try and post up and crash the boards, leaving us at a disadvantage when poor percentage shots result in break-outs.
|
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6404
Reg: 11-22-04
|
01-17-22 09:48 PM - Post#333627
In response to andybech
Yes, Princeton hit a lot more 3s, but that doesn’t have anything to do with PG play. They distribute through their big, just like we do. Princeton uses even less of a traditional PG than we do.
A lot of the difference is how each team defended. Princeton basically guarded the 3 point line and didn’t help. We helped, so once someone penetrated, we went into scramble mode, and they pass it well enough and quickly enough as a team to get open 3s out of that.
Like the Columbia game, we needed to shoot well against a team that doesn’t defend particularly well, and we shot ok — but not quite well enough to win.
|
palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32803
Reg: 11-21-04
|
01-17-22 09:52 PM - Post#333628
In response to SomeGuy
We took too many bad 2's--a fundamental mistake in today's game. But the game was decided at the line, because we always were rushing out late at the defender while we were forcing on offense. You cannot win with 3-12 from 3 today. And Princeton isn't all that on defense-we just didn't work for good shots.
|
Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
|
01-17-22 10:44 PM - Post#333632
In response to Silver Maple
Until the university addresses the growing talent disparities versus the rest of the league (and not just in MBB), Penn will continue to lose games like this. Did Donahue have a good game plan today? I'm not sure. But, what I am sure of, is that the best coach in the world can't win without the horses. If the university leadership wants to have winning varsity teams, at least in the high-visibility sports (and I'm not at all convinced that it does), it will have to take a hard look at why our coaches can't recruit. Maybe we have the wrong coaches, and if so they should be replaced. But I think the problems go deeper than that. If the systemic factors aren't changed, firing some coaches isn't going to make much of a difference.
Even if one accepts that this is all the administration's problem, the unescapable conclusion is that you have to fire steve.
State 1: The admin is fine, this cruddy situation is steve's fault. We get worse each year, this is all on Steve, fire Steve.
State 2: The admin is rotten, well the good news is, the answer remains the same - Fire Steve! If the admin is rotten, then their decision making process was flawed in hiring Steve so Steve must not be the right coach (this isn't hindsight, many of us noticed Steve's, er, mediocre approach to coaching over a dozen years.)
Another way of putting it is that if we're stuck with the admin, then this world is going to be difficult and there will be a low probability of success (a top 100 team) but there again, the answer is clear - we KNOW Steve can't do it or he would have done it by now. Worst comes to worst, we finish 275. Is that really worse than 225 KenPom? No.
Look, you all are determined to take your sweet time getting to a place that we all know we're going. Fine. I haven't watched a minute of Ivy action. It's liberating. I'll join you when Penn gives me a reason.
|
LyleGold
PhD Student
Posts: 1712
Reg: 11-22-04
|
Re: Princeton
01-17-22 11:02 PM - Post#333636
In response to palestra38
So this is what you’ve decided to associate yourself with? I hope you two are happy together.
Even if one accepts that this is all the administration's problem, the unescapable conclusion is that you have to fire steve.
State 1: The admin is fine, this cruddy situation is steve's fault. We get worse each year, this is all on Steve, fire Steve.
State 2: The admin is rotten, well the good news is, the answer remains the same - Fire Steve! If the admin is rotten, then their decision making process was flawed in hiring Steve so Steve must not be the right coach (this isn't hindsight, many of us noticed Steve's, er, mediocre approach to coaching over a dozen years.)
Another way of putting it is that if we're stuck with the admin, then this world is going to be difficult and there will be a low probability of success (a top 100 team) but there again, the answer is clear - we KNOW Steve can't do it or he would have done it by now. Worst comes to worst, we finish 275. Is that really worse than 225 KenPom? No.
Look, you all are determined to take your sweet time getting to a place that we all know we're going. Fine. I haven't watched a minute of Ivy action. It's liberating. I'll join you when Penn gives me a reason.
|
UPIA1968
PhD Student
Posts: 1120
Loc: Cornwall, PA
Reg: 11-20-06
|
01-17-22 11:11 PM - Post#333638
In response to palestra38
A note on the remaining schedule regarding the three teams competing for the bottom two spots in the playoff.
Penn with six away games and three tough home games, has easily the most difficult schedule.
Brown has six home games and three away games, only one of which is against a tough opponent (Yale). This is the easiest schedule although Brown trails Penn by two games in the lost column and Harvard by three.
Harvard fits in with six home games and five road games, four of which are against good teams. Harvard leads Penn by one game in the loss column.
Conclusion
|
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6404
Reg: 11-22-04
|
01-17-22 11:41 PM - Post#333640
In response to palestra38
I’m not sure they were bad twos (we did hit over 54% of them), but I agree we needed to hit a higher percentage then we did if we were going to allow them to take more 3s. Also agree that Princeton isn’t very good on defense. We have beaten the two best Ivy defensive teams, and arguably lost to the two worst.
|
Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 7001
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
|
Princeton
01-18-22 07:09 AM - Post#333644
In response to palestra38
I don't know what game you were watching. We had terrible ball movement and repeatedly let Princeton get out with numbers against us. I would rather take bad shots from 3 and get back on defense than have the whole team try and post up and crash the boards, leaving us at a disadvantage when poor percentage shots result in break-outs.
Bad shots from 3 lead to a lot more long rebounds with opponent breakouts against an unbalanced transition D than do post-up sets.
The guys who got the most post-up isolation were Williams, Martz, and Moshkowitz. They were 68% (15-22) on 2s.
The bad 2s we took were mostly off-balance/wrong-footed attempts on dribble penetration, primarily by Dingle and Smith, who along with Monroe were the only guys under .500 on 2s in the game.
Villanova under Wright kills opponents with post isolation, especially by its guards and small forwards, and I have no problem with Steve attempting something similar in this team’s offense since we seem to have multiple guys who can do it at high shooting percentages. With the lack of a true big with MLL out we’ve got to have variety in finding close-in 2 attempts beyond wild Dingle attacks against triple-team coverage.
Edited by Chip Bayers on 01-18-22 07:09 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
|
penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
Reg: 12-02-04
|
Re: Princeton
01-18-22 08:23 AM - Post#333645
In response to Chip Bayers
The bad 2s we took were mostly off-balance/wrong-footed attempts on dribble penetration, primarily by Dingle and Smith, who along with Monroe were the only guys under .500 on 2s in the game.
You're forgetting Slajchert, but he did a nice job hitting his off balance floaters.
|
Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 7001
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
|
01-18-22 09:37 AM - Post#333648
In response to penn nation
I don’t think he’s so off-balance on those. Anyway, he obviously hit at +50% on his 2s, but not so much in the post-up isolation.
I think his only poor shots came a couple of times when he got Tosan on him on a switch on the perimeter, and he rushed his moves trying to blow by to get to the rim, while being overly wary of the trailing shot block chance.
|
palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32803
Reg: 11-21-04
|
Re: Princeton
01-18-22 10:36 AM - Post#333650
In response to LyleGold
I understand that Jeff is dislikable. But he has the right to speak his mind and opinions and we are free to disagree or express outrage. Frankly, he is right on the merits on a number of issues, and for the moment on this board, he is right that Penn has become hard to watch, that it does not appear to be coached well on a game day basis and that its recruiting has not been as good as has been H-Y-Pr (although I think there is talent that is not being used to its best). So in his own manner, he calls for the firing of the coach. I am not there yet (due to Covid), but am within one year of it. I gave strong thought to giving up the season tickets this year (partially due to the fact that they thought nothing of screwing us) and was happy for the spectator cancellation. I watch parts of games and get so frustrated that I have to just shut it off. So if that means I agree with Jeff, so be it. I'd give Steve another year, but I don't see the trend heading in our direction right now.
|
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6404
Reg: 11-22-04
|
01-18-22 11:25 AM - Post#333651
In response to Chip Bayers
I believe Princeton actually had Tosan guard Slajchert for a while in the second half, as odd as that may sound. In other words, I don’t think you were seeing a switch. That may have been part of the reason Mosh was on the bench for so long — we thought they were giving us an advantageous matchup (and they might not have been in reality, as he kind of shut Clark down).
|
Tiger84
Senior
Posts: 379
Age: 61
Reg: 03-06-17
|
01-18-22 11:28 AM - Post#333653
In response to Streamers
I think the line (whether 4 or 5.5) was reflective of an assumption that Llewellyn would not play. Frankly I was shocked he did--though Henderson clearly was limiting his minutes.
|
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6404
Reg: 11-22-04
|
Re: Princeton
01-18-22 11:32 AM - Post#333654
In response to palestra38
P38, we need you buddy. I am a little perplexed that a competitive road loss against a senior laden team that is one of the top two teams in our league has flipped the switch for you, after you’ve been so positive up to this point.
I do think Henderson has gotten the better of Donahue from a coaching perspective over the course of their matchups, but they also have been more talented or experienced in most instances (and sometimes both). They have beaten us in different ways each time. Yesterday both coaches went small, and they beat us with that. If you have the horses, it is easier to look smart.
|
palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32803
Reg: 11-21-04
|
Re: Princeton
01-18-22 11:42 AM - Post#333656
In response to SomeGuy
I really didn't think we were all that competitive once Slajchert allowed the ball to be poked away from behind when we were on a run. This team is just terrible in the half court, and I envisioned a running high pressure team. Frankly, despite Princeton's experience, I don't think that they are very good against pressure or as athletic as we can be (except for the center and senior guard, who clearly was playing hurt). I am at a loss to explain our game plan, and why guys like Washington and Charles are buried on the bench. The one thing I cannot tolerate from a Penn coach, as I stated yesterday, is being owned by Princeton. It's like watching the Cowboys crush the Eagles to an Eagles fan. His record against Princeton is very Jerome-like, and he was hired to end that dynamic. What's worse is that I didn't see the same fighting spirit at Princeton that Penn teams always used to have.
|
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6404
Reg: 11-22-04
|
Re: Princeton
01-18-22 11:55 AM - Post#333658
In response to palestra38
I’m not sure on athleticism. But Princeton is pretty elite at not turning it over and essentially plays 4 guards (at times 5 yesterday). So I’m not sure that pressure is the strategy against them.
I also just don’t think we’re built to play that way. We tried the fast pace in the scrimmage and the first two games, and it didn’t work very well. We’ve played much better since we slowed it down (we now play at the second slowest pace in the league). You could see yesterday— Princeton wanted to play fast, and we were trying to slow them down. Which I think is the right strategy. You saw what happened when Princeton got on the run (and you commented on it negatively).
|
palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32803
Reg: 11-21-04
|
Re: Princeton
01-18-22 11:59 AM - Post#333659
In response to SomeGuy
My comments were based on our misuse of Dingle (and others) forcing shots inside in traffic leading to Princeton coming back down with numbers. We aren't doing anything to get one of the best players in the league the ball in a place to score. It's almost impossible to go on big runs with the offense we are playing. And we give up easy shots because of the offense we are playing.
I'm just disgusted. And I wasn't after Columbia.
|
Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8220
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
|
01-18-22 12:08 PM - Post#333661
In response to Tiger84
I think the line (whether 4 or 5.5) was reflective of an assumption that Llewellyn would not play. Frankly I was shocked he did--though Henderson clearly was limiting his minutes.
I'm sure you are right. I should have checked the Princeton board before posting about the line.
|
Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8220
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
|
Re: Princeton
01-18-22 12:13 PM - Post#333662
In response to palestra38
Personally, the Columbia debacle killed off my optimism.
I'm not in the fire Steve camp yet, and not really close since I doubt they would do it short of a benefactor rebellion or at least 2 more years of this performance and also doubt he would be replaced with a major improvement.
His immediate challenge is getting Dingle out of his funk. If he cannot do it with this kid's talent, it would be an indictment of this abilities.
|
