LyleGold
PhD Student
Posts: 1712
Reg: 11-22-04
|
Re: Yale
01-22-22 07:54 PM - Post#334090
In response to penn nation
Right, that’s exactly what I have said all along. It doesn’t just apply to us, though. The whole league is like that, so forget about just circling @Brown and @Cornell. Circle ’em all.
|
LyleGold
PhD Student
Posts: 1712
Reg: 11-22-04
|
01-22-22 07:58 PM - Post#334091
In response to nychoops
That’s why you add so much to this board. You’re not an unbearable, know-it-all Penn guy, but you know a lot more than us.
|
penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21311
Reg: 12-02-04
|
Re: Yale
01-22-22 07:59 PM - Post#334092
In response to LyleGold
Right, that’s exactly what I have said all along. It doesn’t just apply to us, though. The whole league is like that, so forget about circling @Brown and @Cornell. Circle ’em all.
Except that if we beat Brown we would be up 3 games on them (given the current standings) plus the tiebreaker. And with Cornell it would be up 2 and the tiebreaker.
And those are going to be the teams we'll have to nudge out, I believe. Assume that Princeton is in and that Yale and Harvard are more likely than not to get in as well.
|
LyleGold
PhD Student
Posts: 1712
Reg: 11-22-04
|
Re: Yale
01-22-22 08:06 PM - Post#334094
In response to penn nation
I’m not making any assumptions about anyone, especially Harvard and even Yale. IF they both get in, one or both may be behind us. Your scenario with Brown and Cornell makes certain assumptions about their other games, as well, which I don’t think you can do. (“Given the current standings” won’t be the situation when the time comes.) Cornell drubbed Harvard today, which wasn’t a fluke. Who’s to say others won’t do the same?
|
internetter
Postdoc
Posts: 3400
Loc: Los Angeles
Reg: 11-21-04
|
Yale
01-22-22 08:45 PM - Post#334098
In response to OldBig5
Watching Pn lose at home to Columbia, never leading, now even more startling
Edited by internetter on 01-22-22 08:45 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
|
Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 7001
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
|
Re: Yale
01-22-22 09:02 PM - Post#334101
In response to nychoops
Jordan is a Soph and just dropped 31 on the preseason favorite. Please put down your analytics and the silly nitpicking and appreciate a talent very rarely seen at this level while he’s still here. He is an elite scorer. And to comment he “still doesn’t know when to shoot”… may I ask what that means to you?
The amazing thing is he did this after we were told little more than a week ago right here on this board that he had been passed by Slajchert in the rotation.
|
LyleGold
PhD Student
Posts: 1712
Reg: 11-22-04
|
Re: Yale
01-22-22 09:14 PM - Post#334102
In response to nychoops
And to comment he “still doesn’t know when to shoot”… may I ask what that means to you?
Sure, that was me, so I’ll tell you. First of all, to complete the quote, I added,”…and when not to shoot.” Dingle regularly drives into the lane and forces ridiculous, unmakeable shots that can only lead to two outcomes - miss or foul call. Because they are nearly impossible, refs are reluctant to bail him out. He has yet to develop a reliable drive-and-dish game as he goes into traffic looking only to shoot. He did that several times today during Yale’s second half comeback, but fortunately Slajchert kept us ahead with some big shots. After a timeout, Dingle played much better down the stretch hitting clutch OPEN shots in the lane and a backbreaking 3 pointer.
If you saw Penn’s previous losses to Columbia and Princeton, he was absolutely brutal offensively. While Columbia outplayed us from start to finish, we had a good shot to come back and beat Princeton. In my opinion, Dingle’s repeated dead end drives into traffic were the main reason we lost that game.
|
nychoops
Junior
Posts: 244
Reg: 11-23-04
|
01-22-22 09:44 PM - Post#334104
In response to LyleGold
Ummm, ok. Good thing Slajchert was there to save the day. And yes clearly Jordan was responsible for those losses. Just curious, if you take him off the floor who gets to the basket? Who creates any open shots for anybody? With a 6 5’ center how exactly does the inside/out game work?
|
section110
Masters Student
Posts: 847
Loc: south jersey
Reg: 11-22-04
|
01-22-22 10:11 PM - Post#334105
In response to nychoops
And although he had a bad game against Princeton, Jordan picked up his game & scoring down the stretch there. Do have to recognize the clutch shots Slajchert made when Yale was threatening.
|
LyleGold
PhD Student
Posts: 1712
Reg: 11-22-04
|
01-22-22 10:16 PM - Post#334106
In response to nychoops
Dingle is our best player hands down. Nobody on our roster has the combination of strength, skill, and determination as he does. I’ve heaped praise on him for all of that, as well as his loyalty to our team, having taken a year off of school to maintain his Penn eligibility rather than opt for a grad year elsewhere. Despite that, I think he would be a better player if he improved his court vision and looked to get others more involved in the offense. If he develops that aspect of his game, we have a chance to win the league. If not, we’ll see more teamwide flops like the Columbia game.
|
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6418
Reg: 11-22-04
|
Re: Yale
01-22-22 10:17 PM - Post#334107
In response to LyleGold
Does it really make sense to question somebody’s shot selection on a day where he goes 13 for 24? That’s a shooting percentage I take every time.
|
penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21311
Reg: 12-02-04
|
Re: Yale
01-22-22 10:27 PM - Post#334108
In response to SomeGuy
Does it really make sense to question somebody’s shot selection on a day where he goes 13 for 24? That’s a shooting percentage I take every time.
Well, you can when he's 1 for 8 from 3.
|
LyleGold
PhD Student
Posts: 1712
Reg: 11-22-04
|
Re: Yale
01-22-22 10:46 PM - Post#334110
In response to SomeGuy
That’s a comment from somebody with their face buried in a box score, not SomeGuy who watched the game. Just like the fallacy of over reliance on analytics (ORat this, +/- that), you have to look at game situations and how players respond to them. I just finished rewatching the first half, and Dingle was superb. He drove and finished, defended hard, and only made one blind, deadend drive to nowhere (~15:00). He also missed a bunch of 3s. It’s no surprise we took a hefty lead into the locker room.
I’m about to go through the second half to really see how Yale regained all that leverage and got back into the game - pulling within one point 2-3 times. How much of it was Yale’s defense and how much was our poor decision making before Slajchert’s shooting held them at bay and then Dingle delivered down the stretch?
Yes, I believe Dingle’s shot selection played a major role in Yale’s comeback. He also built up good numbers in other parts of the game, which gave him a nice line in the box score. By the way, the 1 in his 1-8 from 3 was probably the dagger that sealed our win.
|
Cvonvorys
Postdoc
Posts: 4526
Loc: Princeton, New Jersey
Reg: 10-11-06
|
Re: Yale
01-22-22 11:01 PM - Post#334111
In response to penn nation
Not for nothing, but AJ got plenty of criticism his sophomore year. As did Ibby and so many others (but not Danley, as this board loved him. Steve… Are you still out there?).
Bottom line: Is Penn a significantly better team with or without him on our roster? Anybody wanna say “without”? I believe we have a lot of talent, but it’s complimentary talent. If an opposing coach game-planned to shut down any particular Penn player, could he? Most likely, yes. And yet Jordan still scores…
Just my opinion…
|
LyleGold
PhD Student
Posts: 1712
Reg: 11-22-04
|
Re: Yale
01-22-22 11:14 PM - Post#334112
In response to Cvonvorys
Bottom line: Is Penn a significantly better team with or without him on our roster? Anybody wanna say “without”?
No, that’s not the bottom line. Nobody has ever said or implied that we’d be better off without him. Not even close.
The real bottom line is if there’s a significant aspect of his game than could improve, one that cost us at least one league game and possibly two, wouldn’t you want to improve it?
|
palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32910
Reg: 11-21-04
|
Re: Yale
01-22-22 11:24 PM - Post#334113
In response to LyleGold
We lost against Columbia and almost blew it today because we are so weak on the defensive boards, not because of any one player’s shooting.
|
LyleGold
PhD Student
Posts: 1712
Reg: 11-22-04
|
Re: Yale
01-22-22 11:37 PM - Post#334114
In response to palestra38
Princeton is the one where Dingle’s shot selection killed us. Columbia was an overall team loss where his horrible offensive performance was one element of a total collapse. Today’s tremendous win was because of great offense in the first half and the last five minutes. Our defense, especially rebounding, is pretty much a constant. By the way, I noticed Lorca Lloyd on the bench in normal sneakers - no boot or crutches. If we can get any of his shot blocking or intimidating presence by the end of the season, we will have that much more of a shot in the tournament.
|
UPIA1968
PhD Student
Posts: 1122
Loc: Cornwall, PA
Reg: 11-20-06
|
01-22-22 11:37 PM - Post#334115
In response to palestra38
He took three steps on that play. Still one extra
|
UPIA1968
PhD Student
Posts: 1122
Loc: Cornwall, PA
Reg: 11-20-06
|
Yale
01-23-22 12:01 AM - Post#334116
In response to UPIA1968
Ken pom now has Penn finishing third at 8-6. He has Harvard and Brown at 7-7.
To the good, Penn has six players who get time with ratings above 100. Guess which of those player has the lowest of those six 100's. Hint: he had 31 today.
Glad he did on a day when Penn couldn't buy a 3.
Edited by UPIA1968 on 01-23-22 12:05 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
|
Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 7001
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
|
Re: Yal
01-23-22 02:31 AM - Post#334118
In response to UPIA1968
Ken pom now has Penn finishing third at 8-6. He has Harvard and Brown at 7-7.
To the good, Penn has six players who get time with ratings above 100. Guess which of those player has the lowest of those six 100's. Hint: he had 31 today.
Glad he did on a day when Penn couldn't buy a 3.
Your grasp of KenPom data and it’s meaning is terribly shallow. Do some homework.
Anyone who puts up a net positive ORtg using 1/3 of a team’s possessions when he’s on the floor is a uniquely valuable player. Most 30%+ volume possession eaters are well under that rating, and tend to play on very bad teams. Sophomore & junior year Tony Hicks for example.
Is it good to be so dependent on so valuable a player? Of course not. It would be better in particular to have Martz, Smith, & Willams upping their usage rate, even if it means lowering their impressive ORtg, because it would shift defensive attention away from Dingle and Slajchert and mean we’re an overall harder rotation to guard.
Still, we do need to recognize that Steve’s system is getting a lot of positive offensive play out of these supporting players.
If those three were all a little more like Monroe and his 18% on O there’d be fewer of those stagnant stretches the offense can lapse into.
Edited by Chip Bayers on 01-23-22 02:47 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
|
