HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2691
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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02-06-22 12:01 PM - Post#335576
Crunch time for the tournament.
Going into this stretch, I wrote that we needed to at least split these 4 games at Brown, Yale (2x) and at Penn. We're certainly in a position to do that, but we need to keep up the intensity. Entering the home stretch at 3-4 (4-5 if we win one of the last two) we are and will be chasing Cornell for the 4th spot.
Cornell, at 4-4, has two games against Columbia left, as well as games at Brown and hosting Dartmouth, both of which may well be realistically eliminated at those points. The game at Harvard on Saturday, February 19th is determinative, and on the second night of back to backs, something certainly favoring Cornell. The Big Red's other game is hosting Yale.
Harvard, on the other hand, plays 5 of 7 games at home, but faces tougher competition in Princeton (2x), Yale, Penn, Columbia, Dartmouth and Cornell.
After next weekend, Cornell, with wins over Columbia and Brown, could be 6-4, with its next game against Dartmouth, leading to a 7-4 record. If Harvard splits its next two games (Yale and Penn), it will be 4-5. Assuming Harvard follows that with a victory against Columbia, a 5-5 Crimson squad could be hosting a 7-4 Cornell team at Lavietes in a must win game.
Of course, if Cornell prevails in that game then kudos to the Big Red for making the tournament. If the Crimson win, then Cornell (7-5) and Harvard (6-5) will be going down the the wire. At that point, Cornell will have Yale at home and Columbia on the road, whereas Harvard will play Princeton (home and away), before closing out with Dartmouth at home.
Assuming Harvard and Cornell tie, I don't have the energy this morning to research older posts to recall how the tie breaker would work.
For Harvard, there is no margin for error any longer.
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iogyhufi
Masters Student
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Age: 27
Reg: 10-10-17
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Re: Down to the Wire
02-06-22 12:15 PM - Post#335580
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
The second tiebreaker is "record against the top team in the league not involved in the tie," and in the event that that proves insufficient, we keep moving down the standings until the tie is broken. The race for first is still extremely tight, but as of right now:
Harvard:
0-1 against Yale
0-1 against Penn
0-0 against Princeton
Cornell:
0-1 against Yale
0-2 against Penn
1-1 against Princeton
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2691
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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02-06-22 01:02 PM - Post#335585
In response to iogyhufi
Thanks!
If Princeton hadn't pulled out a miracle win against Cornell this would be all but over!
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TigerFan
PhD Student
Posts: 1888
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-06-22 01:07 PM - Post#335588
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
You're welcome.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: Down to the Wire
02-06-22 07:20 PM - Post#335637
In response to iogyhufi
I knew our loss to Columbia would come in handy at some point.
The second tiebreaker is "record against the top team in the league not involved in the tie," and in the event that that proves insufficient, we keep moving down the standings until the tie is broken. The race for first is still extremely tight, but as of right now:
Harvard:
0-1 against Yale
0-1 against Penn
0-0 against Princeton
Cornell:
0-1 against Yale
0-2 against Penn
1-1 against Princeton
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LyleGold
PhD Student
Posts: 1712
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Down to the Wire
02-06-22 10:51 PM - Post#335656
In response to penn nation
I knew our loss to Columbia would come in handy at some point.
In all seriousness, we’ve been saying all along it wouldn’t hurt us in the tiebreaker because we have wins over Yale and Harvard (which doesn’t look quite as great now). Two of them over Cornell could help if it gets that far because Princeton is 1-1 against them. The ultimate tiebreaker will come in the season finale which I predict will determine the #1 seed and the conference championship, with Yale conceivably squeaking in depending on the outcome.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: Down to the Wire
02-06-22 11:06 PM - Post#335658
In response to LyleGold
Especially if Harvard is shut out, it's going to be a free for all in this year's ILT and no matter who Penn would play it's hard to see Penn being favored by very much if at all.
So I'm less concerned about seeding and more interested in just making the thing and making sure that Harvard is on the Cambridge looking Allston.
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Naismith
Sophomore
Posts: 149
Loc: RI
Reg: 11-11-18
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02-07-22 12:49 PM - Post#335704
In response to penn nation
Still a shame the winner of the 14-game tournament on March 5 (all televised) can't take a 7-8 day break, scout potential tournament opponents, heal the bodies, allow fans and families time to plan Round One travel.
(for someone's anticipated "whatabout" comment, yes that would change for a regular season tie playoff.)
Instead ESPN stuffs an Ivy tournament final between two teams playing for an, at best, #15 seed on the absolute March 13 final day of Madness, allowing maybe 2 days off, little rest from the back-to-back games, travel and little preparation for a far superior opponent.
Suspect ESPN pressure makes this happen, and Ivies will always play with the worst cards dealt.
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bradley
PhD Student
Posts: 1842
Age: 74
Reg: 01-15-16
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02-07-22 01:08 PM - Post#335705
In response to Naismith
How true but remember we are talking about IvyMadness and IL Presidents' decision making.
Right now, Yale and Princeton are #15 seeds with all others being #16 seeds regarding the men. That will probably change with the likelihood that Yale would be the only non-16 seed. On the women's side, Princeton is #10 or #11 with an upside of getting to #9.
On the men's side, it will be one and done unless a miracle takes place and the scheduling of IvyMadness certainly does not help as you suggest but we are talking about Dumb and Dumber regarding sports and IL.
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LyleGold
PhD Student
Posts: 1712
Reg: 11-22-04
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Down to the Wire
02-07-22 01:12 PM - Post#335706
In response to Naismith
The Ivies play with the worst hand dealt because they choose to deal themselves the worst hand in every way possible.
I was dead set against the ILT when it was first proposed because it would devalue the regular season. Instead, the regular season is more interesting than ever, especially this year. My concern is the prospect of expanding it to allow all eight schools in. That would effectively kill the regular season except for jockeying for seeding. That's not good enough for me.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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02-07-22 01:14 PM - Post#335707
In response to bradley
the 16 seed possibility has a lot more to do with not playing last year and an abysmal non conference performance than it does with the existence of an ILT. If any of our top teams had played better in some marquee non conference games we would be in line for a higher seed, as we have been in past years. The ILT has little to nothing to do with the NCAA seed unless a 4 seed upsets our 1/2 seed, which has never happened to date.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32815
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-07-22 01:16 PM - Post#335708
In response to bradley
It's all because they changed the concept entirely since it was first proposed. Initially, it was to play in an arena big enough for all Ivy fans to gather as a social event, and put the best image forward of the Ivies as a successful basketball conference. That didn't necessarily mean the tournament was to be at the Palestra or Jadwin, but certainly, not on campus where the arenas cannot support the goal of bringing everyone together. In Boston, BU's arena is perfect for an Ivy-style tournament. And with Princeton changing it's post-vacation exam policy, that would allow moving the tournament up a week to not conflict with Spring Break and allow the teams time to rest up before the NCAA's and/or NIT tournaments. Everything changed when certain schools demanded the right to host the tournament and TV time was harder to get a week earlier. So we play in a high school gym with each set of ticket holders getting booted between games so no one meets or socializes with anyone else right up against NCAA selection, so we get screwed there as well. Leave aside the issue of not having a tournament--it's been decided and whether we agree with it or not, it is happening. But the way this is being done is just ridiculous.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32815
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-07-22 01:18 PM - Post#335710
In response to PennFan10
It does affect seeding in that the tournament ends a couple of hours before the seeding is announced and we are far more likely to be adversely affected by the fact all other spots are taken by the time our tournament is done---that's why Penn got screwed and given a 16 seed at Kansas when it was clearly better than a lot of 15s that year.
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bradley
PhD Student
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Age: 74
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02-07-22 02:22 PM - Post#335721
In response to palestra38
It would be good for the league if Harvard gets in as there is no good optics for a half empty arena. I think that Amaker will find a way. There were so many unrealistic expectations made by IvyMadness proponents - just has not come to fruition as to 2 bids, recruiting, much greater visibility etc. Hopefully, many changes will be made but I doubt it.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32815
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-07-22 02:26 PM - Post#335722
In response to bradley
Agreed, as "fairness" among the league members takes precedence over everything else. Frankly, if we're going to do it this way, might as well just play in home buildings of higher seed so there are no doubleheaders and the buildings are more likely to be filled.
But that was not the concept of "Ivy Madness", the name itself connoting a raucous mass gathering.
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LyleGold
PhD Student
Posts: 1712
Reg: 11-22-04
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02-07-22 02:54 PM - Post#335725
In response to bradley
There were so many unrealistic expectations made by IvyMadness proponents - just has not come to fruition as to 2 bids, recruiting, much greater visibility etc. Hopefully, many changes will be made but I doubt it.
I think the first two years at the Palestra, as well as the amazing Harvard-Yale playoff that went down to the final second the year before, were exactly what the league expected. There was tremendous atmosphere and lots of friendly rivalry being expressed in the packed stands and the corridors. I’m not sure a second bid was high on the expectations list, although it made for some good discussion. As a recruiting tool and PR vehicle, the Ivy League could not have put forth a better package.
The experience at Yale was alright, but not as good. At least semifinal tickets were for both games, so supporters of all four squads (+ some interested fans of the other schools) could share the arena.
Obviously, this year’s edition precludes much of what made the first couple so successful. It could very well come across as a public embarrassment, not that it would bother the league that much.
Staging an ILT at Jadwin would likely recapture some of what will be lost this year, although it could never match the atmosphere of a full Palestra. All other host schools (besides Pn, Pr, Y) should opt for a larger, nearby neutral arena.
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bradley
PhD Student
Posts: 1842
Age: 74
Reg: 01-15-16
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02-07-22 05:03 PM - Post#335744
In response to LyleGold
Reality is that a number of IvyMadness supporters claimed that the introduction of the Tournament would provide the push to send two teams on a somewhat regular basis to the Big Dance. There were countless numbers/projections thrown about to provide empirical evidence that this would occur yet we obviously have witnessed something very different. Many of the non-supporters would have taken a different view if they believed that two bids was going to be a reality. There were many suggestions that it would improve the level of recruits coming into the league which was wishful thinking as well and IL regular season arenas would somehow magically fill up for regular season games. COVID certainly had an effect in the past two years but then again, the IL Presidents decision to cancel last season is another issue other than IvyMadnesss.
As to location, the IL schools would never agree, understandably so, to the Palestra or Jadwin on a yearly basis based on home team advantage. There were other alternatives than what they decided upon. IL schools are loaded with money yet they act like The Summit League.
Fortunately, Harvard Women should qualify for IvyMadness so hopefully, the stands will be filled for at least the women's game but to avoid embarrassment, it would be helpful for Amaker's team to qualify as well.
The A-10 regularly sends more than 1 team to the Big Dance so to have an A-10 Tournament is fine. They rotate their Tournament between several cities including Brooklyn and DC at big arenas. It all makes sense.
What the IL does -- does not make sense.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32815
Reg: 11-21-04
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Down to the Wire
02-07-22 05:14 PM - Post#335745
In response to bradley
I don't think the League ever touted the Madness as a means to obtain an at large berth in the NCAAs. I think that was a function of some of the pro-tournament posters here. The League wanted it as a grand social and branding event....somewhat more the latter, but the social aspect was significant. For branding, the Palestra was chosen and yeah, I understand the complaints from other schools. But to move it to clearly substandard arenas and play it at 11 in the morning ...with the finals on Selection Sunday so as to forfeit any serious consideration of the League's actual winner, is just ridiculous. Everything has become a compromise upon a compromise and there is no reason for any of it. But we all know they aren't getting rid of it--just put someone in charge that can make a decision based on a set of criteria---such as minimum 5000 seats so people can come and see the entire tournament and get the women some publicity rather than have their own private tournament in the same location. Then market the hell out of it to Ivy League alumni and make the trip an attractive one. Price the tickets at an appropriate amount for Ivy League games---there are other ways to make money.
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Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts: 3995
Reg: 11-23-04
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02-07-22 05:56 PM - Post#335750
In response to palestra38
I believe they did because most, if not all, of the players, ADs and coaches wanted to do it. I don't believe appealing to the fans is at the top of the League's priorities.
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Naismith
Sophomore
Posts: 149
Loc: RI
Reg: 11-11-18
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02-07-22 07:58 PM - Post#335766
In response to bradley
Unless there were some quirky happenings in the 1940's before a formal Ivy League, the IL has NEVER had two entries in the NCAA basketball Tournament. What makes everyone think it will happen in this era, with over 350 teams playing for a shot at glory.
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