iogyhufi
Masters Student
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Age: 27
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02-13-22 01:30 AM - Post#336270
Well, the last game against the Quakers followed recent tradition where Yale is hot garbage at the drafty old barn in University City. It should therefore stand to reason that this game will follow the recent home tradition where Yale plays like hot garbage for 36 minutes, then Penn chokes in the most improbable of ways (cf. 2018, where Donahue bizarrely outsmarts himself by putting in Human Victory Cigar Sam Jones in to shoot free throws, which goes poorly and costs Penn the outright title; 2020, when Penn loses despite 27% season shooter Devon Goodman going 6-7 from 3 due to blowing a ten point lead in 100 seconds of game time, an event later dubbed "the Fail at Yale" by the Daily Pennsylvanian).
I will be interested in seeing how the Bulldogs' recent big man Renaissance affects the game. Penn's bigs aren't exactly fantastic, and with Knowling putting his name in contention for ROY and Jarvis proving his mettle as a solid big on both ends, Yale has the potential to take advantage at the rim. It will also be interesting to see too how both teams' stars play in this game. How will Yale defend this time? Will the offense be up and running sufficiently well, or are they going to end up in another rock fight?
These are two big games for the Bulldogs: a sweep of the weekend all but seals an outright championship and the one seed. Hopefully the student body will come out in force to support the team.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32803
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Re: Penn II
02-13-22 09:46 AM - Post#336282
In response to iogyhufi
..It's all about the Penn game. If Penn wins, it gets the tiebreaker. If Penn loses, Yale can still lose to Princeton and win the title.
But I'm looking forward to the game, despite the fact that we both know that it's 99% that both teams are in the tournament.
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T.P.F.K.A.D.W.
PhD Student
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Loc: Our Nation's Capital
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Re: Penn II
02-13-22 12:40 PM - Post#336299
In response to iogyhufi
I’m a Penn grad, but I just want to say how much I respect the trash talk.
Frankly, there’s not enough of it on this board.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: Penn II
02-13-22 12:51 PM - Post#336303
In response to T.P.F.K.A.D.W.
I’m a Penn grad, but I just want to say how much I respect the trash talk.
Frankly, there’s not enough of it on this board.
It tells you all you need to know that there was far more discussion of the H-Y game on the Penn board than on this one.
[Does this count as trash talking?  ]
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james
Masters Student
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02-13-22 01:09 PM - Post#336311
In response to penn nation
its a simple game plan.
trap dingle when he gets off the bus. and if they are banging in 3s off the reversal... live with it
i didnt know thats the son of dana dingle. no wonder. that u mass team was awesome. everyone remembers camby but Lou Roe was a beast on the glass and dingle was a baller too
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penn nation
Professor
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02-13-22 01:21 PM - Post#336313
In response to james
its a simple game plan.
trap dingle when he gets off the bus. and if they are banging in 3s off the reversal... live with it
i didnt know thats the son of dana dingle. no wonder. that u mass team was awesome. everyone remembers camby but Lou Roe was a beast on the glass and dingle was a baller too
Penn took them down to the wire in '93 in the NCAA first round, but got Saturday Night Massacred by them in Amherst on national TV in '95.
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LyleGold
PhD Student
Posts: 1712
Reg: 11-22-04
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02-13-22 01:39 PM - Post#336317
In response to james
Long time Penn fans remember Dana Dingle well as he and Lou Roe were the backbone of the #3 seed UMass team that the #14 Quakers faced in the NCAA Tournament in Syracuse in 1993. Despite the first of three March Madness shooting disasters by Matt Maloney (4/16), the young Penn team held its head high in a 4 point loss knowing it had a bright future ahead. They would string together two more undefeated Ivy seasons, eventually setting a record 48 game conference winning streak. Maybe Dana’s memory of that team, with current HC Steve Donahue as Fran Dunphy’s assistant, along with some remarkable struggles against Temple in the Palestra (anyone remember John Chaney threatening to kill Calipari?), encouraged him to steer Jordan towards the Cathedral.
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LyleGold
PhD Student
Posts: 1712
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Penn II
02-13-22 02:23 PM - Post#336324
In response to iogyhufi
Well, the last game against the Quakers followed recent tradition where Yale is hot garbage at the drafty old barn in University City.
Ha, so funny. I’d never take a cheap shot at Payne Whitney, as it’s the only other gym in the Ivies with any atmosphere whatsoever. I have taken shots at your coach’s tactics, especially in the early years of his tenure, but that’s a story for a different time. Just ask Jeff Schiffner.
But still, you’re not the first to make the mistake of referring to a magnificent monument filled with history and tradition as a barn. E.M. Forster, in his eminent, but at times cringeworthy novel, A Room with a View , (perhaps the best known of the genre about tightly wound 19th century Brits journeying to Tuscany and immediately unraveling), in reference to the Basilica of Santa Croce, which contains the tombs of Michelangelo, Macchiavelli, and Galileo, as well as important frescoes by Giotto and sculptures by Donatello, says,”Santa Croce, though like a barn, has harvested many beautiful things inside its walls.” Although the enormously important Franciscan church is not a cathedral, the Palestra is.
The Palestra: Cathedral of Basketball
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000TV4QT6/ref=cm_ sw_r_c...
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32803
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Re: Penn II
02-13-22 02:43 PM - Post#336330
In response to LyleGold
What's more, they replace all the windows 3 years ago (they no longer open) and it's not drafty at all
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LyleGold
PhD Student
Posts: 1712
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Penn II
02-13-22 02:52 PM - Post#336332
In response to palestra38
It was really never drafty. It used to get so suffocatingly hot, even on the coldest winter nights, that they’d open the doors along the north side at halftime to let the air in. Those of us who have sat in those stands for decades are familiar with the refreshing rush of cold air at intermission, which also helps cleanse the Cathedral of the stench of “Yale’s hot garbage”, iogy’s only salient observation.
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Silver Maple
Postdoc
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02-13-22 03:30 PM - Post#336349
In response to LyleGold
If I were going to make a list of the top five things in the whole world that I don't care about, what Yale fans think of the Palestra would probably be on it.
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LyleGold
PhD Student
Posts: 1712
Reg: 11-22-04
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Penn II
02-13-22 03:42 PM - Post#336352
In response to Silver Maple
Yeah, well, those guys played the Safety School card recently, so their futile attempts to find a way to get under our skin need to be called out. Jealousy is generally a bad look.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32803
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-13-22 03:46 PM - Post#336353
In response to LyleGold
Let's not generalize and cause a flame war. One guy used the safety school line, and he isn't on this thread.
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LyleGold
PhD Student
Posts: 1712
Reg: 11-22-04
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Penn II
02-13-22 03:47 PM - Post#336354
In response to palestra38
You got something better to do?
I mildly toned it down, but that’s about it.
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james
Masters Student
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Age: 48
Reg: 03-18-19
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02-13-22 03:53 PM - Post#336357
In response to LyleGold
i have a piece of wood from the palestra as a bottle opener on my bar.
I scored double digits there as a freshman. Happy memory
Penn kicked our butt though
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iogyhufi
Masters Student
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Age: 27
Reg: 10-10-17
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Re: Penn II
02-13-22 04:04 PM - Post#336360
In response to LyleGold
Merciful heavens, who knew that the Palestra was such serious business? I certainly am not jealous of the Palestra, if for no other reason than that PWG is an ideal type of gym for Ivy League teams nowadays: it's small enough that you could feasibly sell it out in non-tourney situations, and it's small in volume so that it doesn't need to be full to get loud (and gets really loud when it is full). For whatever reason, students just don't attend games in the same numbers that they evidently used to do. I can't comment on Penn's attendance, nor do I care to, but given the usual attendance at Yale games, I wouldn't want Yale to play home games in an 8700 seat gym. It'd feel cavernous and empty all the time.
Anyway, back to the game at hand: I think a key matchup will be Martz against Knowling (presuming Martz has passed protocols by Friday). They're both undersized 4-men who can handle the ball well, but with generally opposite scoring profiles. If either one proves incapable of guarding the other, that will place a lot of strain on the opposing defense.
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james
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Age: 48
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02-13-22 04:05 PM - Post#336361
In response to james
it’s all in good fun. The palestra is great. my worst memory there is not losing by 30 to Maloney allen bowman Krug etc.
It is watching harvard beat yale in the 2015 playoff live.
It’s a great venue and we hadn’t won anything in modern times which is why I trudged north to see live
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SRP
Postdoc
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02-13-22 04:19 PM - Post#336363
In response to james
Ten people in the Palestra sound like 100. The hearing-aid makers should subsidize the place for increasing demand.
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james
Masters Student
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Age: 48
Reg: 03-18-19
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02-13-22 04:19 PM - Post#336364
In response to james
really surprised knowling has proved to be so unguardable when he posts in the league so far. He has great length and touch but isn’t big or bulky. To stop him you can’t let him back you down to get to his left hand
Given he starts on the roll or slip that’s actually a defensive key and my guess is a focal point for anyone left.
he played well against st Mary’s I think but wasn’t yet getting the pt out of conference. Otherwise that would be the instructional video on how to stop him. Bc size and strength shld be able to negate his positioning
when he hopefully gets confidence in his face up game then the options will be hopefully more limited in how to defend him
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iogyhufi
Masters Student
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02-13-22 04:29 PM - Post#336369
In response to james
He reminds me a bit of Tamenang Choh (I stress a bit, please do not read this as me saying that Knowling is currently as good as Choh) in terms of style. He's an undersized post-up big with decent handles and a nose for the ball. I 100% agree that if he adds a face-up game he'll be a really tough player to guard going forward.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
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Re: Penn II
02-13-22 04:29 PM - Post#336370
In response to LyleGold
Even in the coldest of winter nights I would always come dressed in layers since I knew within 5 minutes I’d be shvitzing. Usually down to a T shirt on top within the first 30 minutes
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LyleGold
PhD Student
Posts: 1712
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Penn II
02-13-22 04:40 PM - Post#336374
In response to iogyhufi
Merciful heavens, who knew that the Palestra was such serious business?
Umm, anyone who grew up there, has any sense of history, or just pays attention. I’m glad to hear you’re happy not being stuck with it in New Haven. You’re right, that would be a waste.
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iogyhufi
Masters Student
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Age: 27
Reg: 10-10-17
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Re: Penn II
02-13-22 04:50 PM - Post#336377
In response to LyleGold
History is an overrated factor in a gym. Shawn Kemp and Scott Skiles played in my high school's gym. We played in gyms where Oscar Robertson and Larry Bird played. It's neat to have, but it doesn't really move the needle for me vis-a-vis viewing experience. Which doesn't mean that the Palestra isn't a good gym to watch a game in (which, mind, was also not really what I was trying to say before), but if I want to appreciate history, I'll go to a museum.
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LyleGold
PhD Student
Posts: 1712
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Penn II
02-13-22 05:10 PM - Post#336382
In response to iogyhufi
That’s fine, but we’re talking about different things. The degree to which the Palestra is a “factor” is debatable, but totally beside the point. When I go there, I am going to a museum. Have you ever walked around the concourse and looked at the displays? The place itself is dripping in history, and that is without considering the exhibits throughout the building. If that doesn’t mean anything to you and affect the overall experience, we’re simply talking past one another.
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james
Masters Student
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Age: 48
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02-13-22 05:11 PM - Post#336383
In response to iogyhufi
The sad thing is the point on attendance. James has said as much.
When he gave them a breath of life in the early 2000s at least within the league student attendance surged.
Strangely it has dropped again in yales best era with the exception of harvard and maybe princeton games.
i will never understand why the townie attendance was so poor also in this era. What the hell else is there to watch in new haven?
UConn sucked for most of this period until lately.
The good news is Payne Whitney with reasonable attendance is so damn loud in part bc of bad acoustics. Which makes it an easier bar for home court advantage when we just don’t get the support of 20 years ago consistently even with a better product
Maybe post covid helps. Maybe not. but it still gets loud and annoying for any visitor.
Knowling/choh is a great comparison. i agree w swain. He has poy potential even though I guess he only has 2 more years at Yale.
not to jinx him. But I don’t see how he can’t extend his game in 2 yrs.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
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Re: Penn II
02-13-22 05:11 PM - Post#336384
In response to LyleGold
Love that picture of Lefko, too. That was during my time there.
That’s fine, but we’re talking about different things. The degree to which the Palestra is a “factor” is debatable, but totally beside the point. When I go there, I am going to a museum. Have you ever walked around the concourse and looked at the displays? The place itself is dripping in history, and that is without considering the exhibits throughout the building. If that doesn’t mean anything to you, we’re simply talking past one another.
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james
Masters Student
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Age: 48
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02-13-22 05:15 PM - Post#336387
In response to james
In the 90s jadwin and the palestra were mostly full. The house of Payne sold out for Penn princeton and harvard despite the fact that h and y weren’t good.
It was a fun era. and loud
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
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Loc: New Jersey
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02-13-22 05:38 PM - Post#336396
In response to james
I got winded just walking up the IAB steps to watch Harvard in my days. I lived in a 4th floor suite in Winthrop House and spend more time on steps than the walk. Having played HS basketball, it was so easy to get in a pickup game or find time for intramural games, except for the day a kid named Patrick Ewing came over from Cambridge Rindge & Latin to scrimmage.
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iogyhufi
Masters Student
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Age: 27
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Re: Penn II
02-13-22 05:41 PM - Post#336399
In response to LyleGold
I've seen the displays, and I agree they're quite nice. I appreciate that the Palestra wants to preserve its own history. But what makes gyms special for me are the atmospheres they have and the memories I have therein. (I suspect that that's the largest part of the reason old-guard Ivy Leaguers and Penn folks love the Palestra - the path to March always lead through it and the fans back in the day packed it to the rafters! The Big 5 contests let Penn get free shots at top-tier teams like Nova and Temple at home! If any top area team would consent to play Yale in New Haven, I suspect I'd have an attachment like that too.)
The unfortunate fact of the matter is that Penn really hasn't been in the very top echelon of Ivy League basketball basically since Fran Dunphy left. Glenn Miller's first year at the helm was the last time Penn was top-100 nationally, as measured by KenPom. Since then, Harvard has had five such teams. Princeton has had four. Yale has had four. Even Cornell has had one. Penn has only won one Ivy League title since then (though they're contending for another this year), but that was in one of the worst years the league has had in a decade.
I don't say this as some attempt to talk trash or slam Penn as yesterday's news, because that clearly isn't true. Penn has been a quality team and a tough out every year since Donahue was hired, and this year is no exception. But when I was in school, Penn wasn't the sort of team whom you circled on the calendar before the season. You wouldn't think that winning in the Palestra was the pinnacle of the conference season. That role was taken by Harvard or Princeton. Heck, in the games that I attended at the Palestra where Yale played Penn, I found the atmosphere underwhelming. That might be why I don't have the same attraction to the Palestra that others do.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: Penn II
02-13-22 05:47 PM - Post#336400
In response to iogyhufi
Heck, in the games that I attended at the Palestra where Yale played Penn, I found the atmosphere underwhelming. That might be why I don't have the same attraction to the Palestra that others do.
This also makes it challenging to attract current Penn students to attend. In my days as a student, you had to camp outside of the Palestra in a line, overnight, for the rights to season tickets (and this was in the 80s, after the true glory years when they were nationally ranked).
But once you're inside the Palestra with a competitive team and a crowd atmosphere to match...you are hooked. I know that I was. I had no previous experience with the Palestra or Penn basketball prior to my freshman year.
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LyleGold
PhD Student
Posts: 1712
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Penn II
02-13-22 06:36 PM - Post#336402
In response to iogyhufi
But what makes gyms special for me are the atmospheres they have and the memories I have therein. (I suspect that that's the largest part of the reason old-guard Ivy Leaguers and Penn folks love the Palestra - the path to March always lead through it and the fans back in the day packed it to the rafters!
But when I was in school, Penn wasn't the sort of team whom you circled on the calendar before the season.
I can’t disagree with any of what you say, as I feel the same way. Yes, memories play a tremendous role in elevating the significance of a place, but they aren’t all there is to it. I grew up loving the perennial last place Washington Senators and have exceptionally strong feelings for DC Stadium/later RFK. However, the place was then, and still is, a soulless dungeon. When the Expos became the Nationals and played their first couple of seasons there, a trip to a Nats game was an emotional journey to the past. Having never gone to a Redskins game except in Philly (due to the 20 year waiting list for season tickets), the personal connection was limited to baseball.
However, you are also ignoring another side to the equation that isn’t about personal experience, and that is historical significance. I remember getting choked up the first time I walked into the San Siro to see an AC Milan game, and I am a fan of Fiorentina, whose historic stadium (built two years after the Palestra) I have visited dozens of times. Similarly, my first time in Fenway Park in the early ‘80s was a profound experience despite a paltry crowd to see the Toronto Blue Jays (Yaz hit two doubles, though), yet the place meant nothing to me personally.
Any fan who is a student of history and can fully appreciate its value should have a sense of awe when visiting a hallowed monument regardless of the energy surrounding the event. When the monument is an architectural marvel, that further raises the bar. Add in a meaningful encounter with an electric atmosphere, you’ve got the full package. I anticipate that will be the case on March 4 when Princeton comes to town with the league title at stake.
As far as the second part of your quote, when I was in school, we went to the FINAL FOUR.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6404
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Re: Penn II
02-14-22 02:16 PM - Post#336444
In response to iogyhufi
First game they both were pretty successful on offense. Martz got into foul trouble and only played 17. Both Knowling and Martz shot over 70% in the first game.
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iogyhufi
Masters Student
Posts: 680
Age: 27
Reg: 10-10-17
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Re: Penn II
02-17-22 01:05 PM - Post#336642
In response to SomeGuy
Will McCormack once again delivers the goods:
https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2022/02/17/mens- bas...
Quote of note from Luke Benz, the Yale graduate statistician: “A weekend sweep would mean the Ivy regular season title, and along with it the top seed at Ivy Madness, would be firmly Yale’s to lose down the home stretch of the season. Any result other than a weekend sweep and we’re looking at [a] messier picture with the title race likely going undecided into the final weekend.”
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iogyhufi
Masters Student
Posts: 680
Age: 27
Reg: 10-10-17
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Re: Penn II
02-17-22 01:17 PM - Post#336646
In response to iogyhufi
Also, a weird statistical anomaly: the last time Yale split its home weekend with the Ps was in 2013-14, when Yale beat Penn but lost to Princeton. Yale has swept the Ps at home every year since with the exception of the 2016-17 year, when they were themselves swept by the best Princeton team in recent memory and the ZombieQuakers squad that opened Ivy play 0-6, then closed 6-2 to secure their spot in the inaugural ILT.
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bradley
PhD Student
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Age: 74
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Re: Penn II
02-18-22 06:43 PM - Post#336732
In response to iogyhufi
Yale has a challenging weekend but they have the opportunity to basically close out the IL regular season if they sweep P and P. They will have earned it if they win over the weekend at home but who knows what will actually take place. Right now, Lunardi has Yale as a #15 seed.
If they do, their accomplishment will give them a #1 seed at Lavietes --- what a benefit.
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yoyo
Senior
Posts: 363
Reg: 03-25-09
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02-18-22 07:41 PM - Post#336737
In response to bradley
I respect the Yale program. They were the 1st to break the trend and finally give penn another rival other than princeton.
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LyleGold
PhD Student
Posts: 1712
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Penn II
02-18-22 07:44 PM - Post#336738
In response to bradley
It's all wide open. Every combination of Penn, Princeton, and Yale at 1,2,3 is in play. Don't rule out Brown knocking off at least one of the P's this weekend, and the Harvard-Princeton games will certainly play into the mix leading up to the season finale with Princeton at the Palestra. It's futile trying to handicap any of these games, as evidenced by the headscratching line on Pr-Y tomorrow night. That makes no sense whatsoever to me.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32803
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Penn II
02-18-22 07:58 PM - Post#336743
In response to LyleGold
That's just one handicapper and may be a mistake--wait until tomorrow when others post their lines.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6404
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Penn II
02-18-22 09:07 PM - Post#336771
In response to palestra38
Or hurry up and take Yale and the points.
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iogyhufi
Masters Student
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Age: 27
Reg: 10-10-17
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Re: Penn II
02-18-22 09:56 PM - Post#336813
In response to SomeGuy
Well, that was a great team win for Yale. The defense was generally quite good, as evidenced by High Major Obvious PoY Jordan Dingle's abysmal night from the floor. Mediocre 5th Year I-Guess-He's-Fine-If-You- Like-That-Sort-Of-Thing Azar Swain had a very good game. But the player of the game is obviously Jalen Gabbidon, who had a phenomenal night. Penn doesn't have the horses to guard him, he's stronger than their wings and faster than their posts. Clark Slajchert...man, I wish he weren't going to be around for two more years. He's a crafty scorer at all levels and he very nearly singlehandedly saved Penn.
I wonder if Donahue may not have outsmarted himself a bit with those few possessions of zone. It's not as though Yale was lighting it up on offense at that point, and Yale has several very capable shooters, even if that hasn't been a forte of late.
Nonetheless, a fantastic win that smothers Penn's chances at the one seed and, with a win tomorrow night, makes a solo championship Yale's to lose.
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bradley
PhD Student
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Re: Penn II
02-18-22 10:04 PM - Post#336817
In response to iogyhufi
Not particularly surprising that Yale won as they both physically and mentally tougher than the Quakerites. Home court certainly did not hurt.
It will be interesting if Princeton brings their A game, defensively, tomorrow night. If so, it will be a battle to the bitter end in all likelihood. We can certainly anticipate that Yale will play tough and hard. I suspect that it will be a battle and may be decided based on 3 pt shooting.
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LyleGold
PhD Student
Posts: 1712
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Penn II
02-18-22 10:18 PM - Post#336826
In response to iogyhufi
I wonder if Donahue may not have outsmarted himself a bit with those few possessions of zone. It's not as though Yale was lighting it up on offense at that point, and Yale has several very capable shooters, even if that hasn't been a forte of late.
I’ll have to go back, if I can bear it, and see what happened on those possessions. Showing some zone, which I can’t remember seeing recently, was a predictable move since Penn could not stop Gabbidon inside. I don’t think we expected him to be the guy to light it up from outside in the second half, though.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6404
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Penn II
02-18-22 10:32 PM - Post#336829
In response to LyleGold
Seemed like a reasonable change of pace. But Gabbidon and Swain hit 3 3s in a row against it. It may have literally been three possessions of zone, and 9 quick points for Yale.
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