84grad
Junior
Posts: 277
Age: 64
Reg: 11-09-17
|
02-15-22 09:48 AM - Post#336492
If true, pretty interesting story re Tommy Amaker losing out on Duke job.
https://nypost.com/2022/02/15/mike-krzyz ewski-push...
|
palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32850
Reg: 11-21-04
|
Re: Tommy Amaker
02-15-22 09:58 AM - Post#336494
In response to 84grad
I wonder which horse was decapitated for Coach K to make his point?
|
digamma
Masters Student
Posts: 468
Loc: Minneapolis
Reg: 11-27-11
|
02-15-22 10:12 AM - Post#336496
In response to palestra38
Consistent with some of the rumors bouncing around last year.
|
LyleGold
PhD Student
Posts: 1712
Reg: 11-22-04
|
Tommy Amaker
02-15-22 11:59 AM - Post#336499
In response to digamma
Any theories about why Amaker was vetoed by K after reportedly being offered the job (or at least Asst/HC-in-waiting)? Does K demand "absolute loyalty" like certain criminal enterprises - and not just the ones that decapitate horses? Was Amaker bolting Durham for Seton Hall seen as a betrayal? What about Wojo or Chris Collins who also left Duke's bench to take over big time programs? In particular, you'd think coaching at Northwestern would have some parallels to Duke, being the preeminent academic institution in a Power 5 conference.
Elevating Scheyer, who has no HC experience, seems a lot like a similar move when another ACC legend just down Tobacco Road retired. Anyone remember Bill Guthridge? That didn't work out so well, resulting in UNC bringing Roy Williams back into the fold after just three years.
|
Stuart Suss
PhD Student
Posts: 1439
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylva...
Reg: 11-21-04
|
02-15-22 12:49 PM - Post#336504
In response to LyleGold
My friend, Lyle Gold, is slightly mistaken in his history of the UNC program.
In 1997 Dean Smith timed his retirement (shortly before the start of the 1997-98 season) in a way to force the hiring of his loyal assistant (30 years), Bill Guthridge, as head coach.
The Guthridge hiring worked out well. Guthridge coached the team to the Final Four in 1998 and in 2000, although the 2000 season involved the Tar Heels playing their way to the Final Four out of a Number 8 seed in the tournament. Guthridge retired after 3 seasons with an 80-28 record.
The next hire was the problem. Former alum Matt Doherty was hired after one year as head coach at Notre Dame. Doherty was asked to resign after three seasons, a 53-43 record, and poor relationships with many in the Carolina basketball family. That was when UNC brought back Roy Williams.
After leaving UNC, Doherty attended Wharton and other business schools, taking courses in leadership and management, for the purposes of restoring his reputation. He was reported to have written a thesis about his own leadership failures. Doherty was head coach for one season (2005-06) at Florida Atlantic University. After that season, Doherty was among those considered to succeed Fran Dunphy.
|
LyleGold
PhD Student
Posts: 1712
Reg: 11-22-04
|
Tommy Amaker
02-15-22 12:55 PM - Post#336505
In response to Stuart Suss
You’re right, Stu. My memory of the post- Dean Smith Tar Heels was a little shaky. I do now remember the Matt Doherty fiasco, but why would Guthridge resign after 3 years at age 63 after 30 years as an assistant? While his record seems to have been good, as you pointed out, I seem to recall dissatisfaction with him. Was he having trouble recruiting as the last of Dean’s guys passed through the system?
Dean's recruiting may have accounted for much of Guthridge's success, as Guthridge's recruiting may have contributed to Doherty's failure. We all know that Glen Miller inherited his only Ivy title from Fran Dunphy and never achieved any meaningful success with his own guys.
|
Quake Show
Junior
Posts: 218
Reg: 03-04-20
|
02-15-22 01:55 PM - Post#336506
In response to LyleGold
Another article on the matter:
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10027103-rep or...
|
digamma
Masters Student
Posts: 468
Loc: Minneapolis
Reg: 11-27-11
|
02-15-22 02:16 PM - Post#336508
In response to Quake Show
The theme that is consistent in what is being reported now and the rumors and such from last year are the chemistry/awkwardness of the Duke bench this season. Last year it was more from Tommy's POV--wow, this will be a weird year to move from a head coach role to an assistant role for a season. I guess now we're kind of getting the rest of the story.
|
Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3619
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
|
02-15-22 06:22 PM - Post#336532
In response to digamma
I'll be honest, my guess is Scheyer doesn't come anywhere close to Coach K's success and ends up failing. Having a puppet coach for Coach K from retirement, likely to not be great for him anyway. Be interesting to watch, and for what it is worth, I think Amaker would have thrived in the role.
|
Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts: 3779
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
|
02-15-22 07:49 PM - Post#336537
In response to Mike Porter
It's possible that, if Scheyer does fail, Amaker might find himself in that job eventually.
|
SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4915
Reg: 02-04-06
|
02-15-22 08:57 PM - Post#336539
In response to Silver Maple
The part I don't get is why K wants control after he retires. The whole point of retirement is not to have to worry about stuff. Unless there are some hidden violations that might emerge with the "wrong" successor--then control would reduce worry.
|
sparman
PhD Student
Posts: 1348
Reg: 12-08-04
|
02-15-22 09:11 PM - Post#336541
In response to SRP
Just about anyone who has been in control for as long as they can remember wants .... to stay in control.
|
penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21226
Reg: 12-02-04
|
02-15-22 09:13 PM - Post#336542
In response to sparman
Just about anyone who has been in control for as long as they can remember wants .... to stay in control.
Putin: Hold my beer.
|
dperry
Postdoc
Posts: 2214
Loc: Houston, TX
Reg: 11-24-04
|
02-15-22 09:51 PM - Post#336547
In response to SRP
The part I don't get is why K wants control after he retires.
The part I don't get is why Duke would give him any.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!" |
|
LyleGold
PhD Student
Posts: 1712
Reg: 11-22-04
|
02-15-22 09:59 PM - Post#336548
In response to penn nation
Just about anyone who has been in control for as long as they can remember wants .... to stay in control.
Putin: Hold my beer.
Hmm, Putin is not the first name to come to mind. He rigs elections so he can’t lose, as opposed to organizing a coup after actually losing.
|
penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21226
Reg: 12-02-04
|
02-15-22 10:08 PM - Post#336549
In response to LyleGold
He sends his erstwhile opponents and threats to his dominance into purgatory.
Just about anyone who has been in control for as long as they can remember wants .... to stay in control.
Putin: Hold my beer.
Hmm, Putin is not the first name to come to mind. He rigs elections so he can’t lose, as opposed to organizing a coup after actually losing.
|
LyleGold
PhD Student
Posts: 1712
Reg: 11-22-04
|
02-15-22 10:27 PM - Post#336552
In response to penn nation
Well, if you’re trying to start a Trump-Putin “Worst Person on Earth” debate, I’m not sure how to score it. There are convincing arguments on both sides - as opposed to “very fine people” like in Charlottesville. At least, I’m pretty sure Putin would condemn Nazis.
|
penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21226
Reg: 12-02-04
|
02-15-22 10:32 PM - Post#336553
In response to LyleGold
I'll save this discussion for the OTB.
|
LyleGold
PhD Student
Posts: 1712
Reg: 11-22-04
|
02-15-22 10:33 PM - Post#336554
In response to penn nation
Well, I avoid that place, so that's it.
|
SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4915
Reg: 02-04-06
|
02-15-22 10:34 PM - Post#336555
In response to LyleGold
It's also possible that Scheyer is some sort of prodigy, and K believes that his legacy would be better preserved with him in charge. HIs first recruiting class is ranked #1, so at least that might not be a problem, although Coach K's residual presence could be distorting things.
|
penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21226
Reg: 12-02-04
|
02-15-22 10:52 PM - Post#336556
In response to SRP
It's also possible that Scheyer is some sort of prodigy, and K believes that his legacy would be better preserved with him in charge. HIs first recruiting class is ranked #1, so at least that might not be a problem, although Coach K's residual presence could be distorting things.
He has zero head coaching experience and even at Duke has only been at the associate head coach level for a couple of years.
It's somewhat mystifying that someone like that would even qualify as contending for this position.
|
TigerFan
PhD Student
Posts: 1891
Reg: 11-21-04
|
02-16-22 12:07 AM - Post#336558
In response to penn nation
So K didn’t weigh in with the Duke administration against TA or he did and the administration just blew him off and offered TA the job? And then he talks TA, who presumably interviewed for the job, into not taking it when it’s offered? This is just weird.
|
penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21226
Reg: 12-02-04
|
02-16-22 12:18 AM - Post#336559
In response to TigerFan
I've got nothing per se against Scheyer. Been following him since his high school days when he was part of an all-Jewish starting five at Glenbrook North to win the IHSA title.
But this just seems so weird, doesn't it?
|
OldBig5
Masters Student
Posts: 639
Age: 66
Reg: 02-18-18
|
02-16-22 12:48 AM - Post#336561
In response to penn nation
Scheyer probably reminds Coach K of himself. Most of us default to hiring people like ourselves unless we have enough self awareness to know that different types can work as well. It's really an impossible situation for the kid--he should have run from it.
|
iogyhufi
Masters Student
Posts: 681
Age: 27
Reg: 10-10-17
|
02-16-22 01:27 AM - Post#336562
In response to TigerFan
Amaker is a better man than I, because I would've told that crusty old fossil precisely where he could stick his preference. For that matter, Amaker could've made life very unpleasant for Coach K and Duke if he'd chosen to do so, because the optics of this are absolutely brutal (if the article is to be believed). Frankly, after what Coach K did to him, he'd have been well within his rights to do so.
(I think that staying at Harvard is probably the best career move for Amaker, loathe as I am to admit it. He will never ever ever be fired, he's proven that he can consistently put together strong teams at this level, and it seems as though he and the missus are happy with their position.)
Also, and I apologize for my bluntness here, he's already failed at the helm of two separate Power 5 schools. Duke is the crown jewel of coaching jobs in terms of the infrastructure in place, and Duke shouldn't have to settle for anything less than the best possible hire. I really don't think that Scheyer was that guy based on his inexperience, but I digress.
|
sparman
PhD Student
Posts: 1348
Reg: 12-08-04
|
02-16-22 08:58 AM - Post#336564
In response to iogyhufi
I don't know why anyone would want to be the successor to K. Not just because he's an abusive control freak (or as I have called him, a dyspeptic rodent), but because it will be impossible to satisfy Duke fans accustomed to his success.
People around Maryland grouse about joining the Big 10, but they forget the ACC was run as the All Carolina Conference for years, with K as godfather.
|
palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32850
Reg: 11-21-04
|
Tommy Amaker
02-16-22 09:02 AM - Post#336565
In response to iogyhufi
That's why I made the reference to the Godfather horse's head scene. We don't know what Coach K told Amaker, but it had to be stronger than "I promised Scheyer that he would take my place" after Duke offered him the job.
|
palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32850
Reg: 11-21-04
|
Re: Tommy Amaker
02-16-22 09:08 AM - Post#336567
In response to palestra38
And it appears Scheyer got his first win yesterday as K left due to illness at halftime. But watch that winning putback--only Duke gets the offensive interference call reversed there.
https://www.aol.com/sports/dukes-mike-krz yzewski-r...
|
Condor
PhD Student
Posts: 1888
Reg: 11-21-04
|
Re: Tommy Amaker
02-16-22 11:00 AM - Post#336575
In response to palestra38
This is not to seem disparaging to TA in any way. I think he is an excellent recruiter and a good coach. However, I would ask you all this. If you were Duke, would you be looking for a great recruiter or a great coach. Obviously, any coach needs to do both. However, Duke is an easy sell. I would think the emphasis would be on coaching. In Coach K’s defense, he might honestly believe that Scheyer would have the greatest probability of success based on coaching alone. Further, even though Coach K is retiring, you still want him to be an ambassador for the program, i.e., you want to keep him happy. That they would allow him to take the lead shouldn’t be surprising.
Beyond that, I think we all agree that following a legend is always a challenge and may be biased with failure or at least an inability to satisfy the fan base.
|
palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32850
Reg: 11-21-04
|
Re: Tommy Amaker
02-16-22 11:18 AM - Post#336576
In response to Condor
All true, but it ignores that Duke did its due diligence and then offered Amaker the job. It was only the last second intervention of Coach K after all of this already happened (and he had to know about it) that the "phone call" took place and Amaker declined the offer. Still a lot missing.
|
Condor
PhD Student
Posts: 1888
Reg: 11-21-04
|
Re: Tommy Amaker
02-16-22 12:32 PM - Post#336579
In response to palestra38
I agree with you P38, but it still seems like we are getting 3rd hand information someone within the Duke sphere. I am not certain we really know what happened yet.
|
Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
|
02-16-22 01:20 PM - Post#336581
In response to Condor
It's not hard to imagine how Coach K feels he owns the program and has the right to weigh in on his successor, wants to preserve his legacy, and *might* think that someone is better for the job than Amaker. Since Amaker was going to need to be an assistant coach under Coach K for a year, Coach K might have even felt honor bound to say that he favored another one of his assistants. That in of itself would have made it tough to leave Harvard. Just a theory.
Wow. My 2nd post on the Harvard board ever. Harvard basketball has arrived. 
|
