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Username Post: Colgate        (Topic#26708)
Chip Bayers 
Professor
Posts: 6997
Chip Bayers
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
11-26-22 11:45 AM - Post#347096    

The Raiders played terribly yesterday, with their main rotation guys putting up mediocre to bad ORates, and collectively shooting under their averages from 2, 3, and the FT line. Probably wasn’t a pretty film room last night or walk-through this morning with Matt Langel.

On defense, they let Delaware players Jameer Nelson and Jyare Davis, who had been off to poor starts offensively this year, have breakout games, while LaSalle transfer Christian Ray continued his excellent November play. I did not get to watch the game, but a friend who was at The Palestra said Delaware really dominated the game with athleticism.

They love the three and have multiple guys who shoot it well, so question #1 is do we and can we deny them or at least strongly contest those shots? Richardson, Moffat, Lynch-Daniels, and Baker are all threats from the perimeter, while freshman PG Braeden Smith is expected to be one but hasn’t gotten off to a great start from the arc (4-15).

There’s a very real risk of a Missouri or WVU situation where we let a team come out and torch us with a flurry of early 3s to create a hole difficult to dig out of.


Edited by Chip Bayers on 11-26-22 11:49 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 32685

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Colgate
11-26-22 06:09 PM - Post#347107    
    In response to Chip Bayers

That's exactly what happened--Penn goes down 10-0, but the excellence of our 2 stars gets us right back in the game.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 32685

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Colgate
11-26-22 06:15 PM - Post#347108    
    In response to palestra38

Penn 34-31 at the half.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 32685

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Colgate
11-26-22 07:21 PM - Post#347110    
    In response to palestra38

Penn is brutal against the press, but will win this game. We are what we thought we are--when Dingle and Slajchert are on the court together, we are an offensive juggernaut. They can hit 3s, mid-range and drives. I don't think any Ivy team has that kind of firepower.

 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 21086

Reg: 12-02-04
Re: Colgate
11-26-22 07:25 PM - Post#347111    
    In response to palestra38

Best win of the year, although again that did not seem like a KP Top 100 team we just beat. A vestige of the incredible run Colgate had in the second half of its season last year.

Yes, when our two top guns are hitting we can compete with anyone.

Edited by penn nation on 11-26-22 07:25 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
91Quake 
PhD Student
Posts: 1124

Reg: 11-22-04
11-26-22 07:26 PM - Post#347112    
    In response to penn nation

Martz being more aggressive on the offensive end is huge for us. We need another option and he is our best shooter.

 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 32685

Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Colgate
11-26-22 07:27 PM - Post#347113    
    In response to penn nation

Spinoso with 8 assists to lead the team...although it helps when every time you kick out, the shooter hits the shot.

 
Penn7277 
PhD Student
Posts: 1365

Loc: Lancaster, PA
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Colgate
11-26-22 07:57 PM - Post#347116    
    In response to palestra38

Did anyone notice George Smith's black eyes from the elbow he took yesterday?

 
penn nation 
Professor
Posts: 21086

Reg: 12-02-04
Re: Colgate
11-26-22 08:06 PM - Post#347117    
    In response to penn nation

  • penn nation Said:
Best win of the year, although again that did not seem like a KP Top 100 team we just beat. A vestige of the incredible run Colgate had in the second half of its season last year.

Yes, when our two top guns are hitting we can compete with anyone.



And sure enough, Colgate is now KP 114 and Penn is KP 166.

 
Chip Bayers 
Professor
Posts: 6997
Chip Bayers
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Colgate
11-26-22 08:11 PM - Post#347118    
    In response to Penn7277

  • Penn7277 Said:
Did anyone notice George Smith's black eyes from the elbow he took yesterday?



Word at the Palestra this afternoon he’s that he’s out for a month+, likely returning when Ivy play starts in January.


 
10Q 
Professor
Posts: 23199

Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
11-26-22 08:32 PM - Post#347119    
    In response to Chip Bayers

Sounds like protocol.

 
Chip Bayers 
Professor
Posts: 6997
Chip Bayers
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
11-26-22 08:36 PM - Post#347120    
    In response to 10Q

  • 10Q Said:
Sounds like protocol.



Also my understanding is it wasn’t an elbow he took yesterday but a face plant at Lafayette which broke his nose. He didn’t play against Hartford.


 
Chip Bayers 
Professor
Posts: 6997
Chip Bayers
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
11-26-22 09:09 PM - Post#347126    
    In response to Chip Bayers

As for the game: yes, you’re going to win a lot when Slajchert & Dingle combine for 59 points.

Still, we did seem to play more aggressively on D than in any other game this season, contesting the passing lanes, forcing turnovers on dribblers, and running guys off the three-point line more frequently. Colgate came in hoisting 3s on 39.2% of their FGA on the year and could only manage 28% today. And after hitting their first couple in that 13-0 opening run ended up only 4-16 on the game.

We also did a good job harassing their leading perimeter guy Richardson into a poor game.

Colgate definitely did not look like a top 100 team and obviously aren’t anymore. But they started 3-10 last year before turning into a top 110 & NCAA tournament team, so always possible Matt could get them to do that again. I think of lot of that will depend on the development of the freshman Smith by the time they get to Patriot play. He’s super quick with the true PG skills I was talking about Penn lacking, and looks like he could be really good really soon.


 
palestra38 
Professor
Posts: 32685

Reg: 11-21-04
11-26-22 09:47 PM - Post#347127    
    In response to Chip Bayers

Of course. But the key fact is that both Slajchert and Dingle looked far healthier than 2 weeks ago and both repetitively beat their men off of the first step. You really cannot cover both of them.

I also really liked the MLL defense on a very good center. Spinoso also played very hard but was a bit more overmatched defensively.

Tomorrow will be interesting--Delaware is more like Towson. If we play with them, we have showed improvement.

 
Chip Bayers 
Professor
Posts: 6997
Chip Bayers
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
Colgate
11-26-22 09:56 PM - Post#347128    
    In response to palestra38

  • palestra38 Said:
I also really liked the MLL defense on a very good center. Spinoso also played very hard but was a bit more overmatched defensively.



MLL & Spinoso were equally horrible against Records, who torched them on a 7-9 night.

The guy they were better against was the backup center Woodward.

Someone in the group I was sitting with wondered why they insisted on playing behind Records rather than fronting him and denying the entry pass, because it was lights out when Colgate got him the ball inside the restricted arc.

A couple of times Spinoso managed to push him out a bit beyond the dotted line, and those were the only times he missed.

EDIT CORRECTION: looked at the PBP and one of Records misses came against MLL in the first half. The other was against Spinoso in the 2nd.

Still, they were both pretty bad and should have fronted him more.


Edited by Chip Bayers on 11-26-22 10:23 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Streamers 
Professor
Posts: 8141
Streamers
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Colgate
11-26-22 11:09 PM - Post#347134    
    In response to Chip Bayers

So most if the points I wanted to stress from seeing the game live have been made above. I bet Penn wins every game where the guards go 60/60 (points and FG %) but clearly that is not sustainable. The front court needs to show up tomorrow against a (yes P38) Towson-like Blue Hen team that presents an entirely different set of matchups. It was clear in the first half to us that this game would go to the team that shot and defended the 3 better. Langel felt his guys had the advantage inside and effectively took his shooters out of the game to some extent while our guys did a far better job defending the 3 that they have all year. Give Martz some credit. He was the 3rd scoring option and had a very good all around game. Spinoso, for his part, got called for some questionable fouls early on and that made him a bit tentative on D until the last 10 minutes when he got a lot better. His 8 assists were more than kicking it outside. That part of his game is improving with every game. One other note: Penn’s depth was a factor in this one. The Raiders looked gassed in the last 5 minutes. We may see something similar tomorrow. One caution. We have nobody, including DIngle with his lateral movement issues, who can defend guards like Smith.

All in a all, this bodes well for the IL season if you think if Colgate as being comparable to a top tier Ivy team that plays much like the better Yale teams if recent years.

 
SomeGuy 
Professor
Posts: 6391

Reg: 11-22-04
Re: Colgate
11-26-22 11:52 PM - Post#347137    
    In response to Streamers

By kenpom, that was the best win by any Ivy so far this year.

Defense overall was good. While, as others have pointed out, Records in particular had his way inside, some of that is how we chose to play the perimeter. We weren’t going to leave shooters open, so Spinoso and MLL were on an island in there. The perimeter defense was stellar against a tough opponent, and really a team effort.

We comment on the resilience pretty regularly over the last couple of years, but it is worth emphasizing again. Got down 13-0, but the kids didn’t fold the tent at all. Kept on plugging.

Assume we’ll see a bit of a different rotation tomorrow, including a decent amount of Holland.

 
Penndemonium 
PhD Student
Posts: 1878

Reg: 11-29-04
11-27-22 02:46 AM - Post#347138    
    In response to SomeGuy

A few thoughts:

- Obviously a great shooting night from Slajchert and Dingle. We don't have any other consistent contributors on offense.
- Slajchert looked great. He is fantastic this year at hitting the runners. His catch and shoot threes look good. The only thing he is missing is the ability to roll off of a screen with the dribble and nail the open three. I don't really understand why he doesn't have this shot, as his fundamentals look great. Shooters like Maloney, Langel, and Betley could hit it, though. I think it has to do with strength and being able to rise straight off of a sidestep move. Slajchert's platform isn't quite as strong and stable as those other guys.
- Dingle looked like himself again. His three point shots look easy for him. He just tosses them easily. Even though his form doesn't look perfect and he takes high degree of difficulty shots, he simply can knock them in. Unlike Slajchert, he is a weapon with taking threes off of a screen. It creates a real problem for defenders. If we had forwards who could finish off of the pick and roll, it would be deadly with Dingle firing away if either defender gives him space.
- MLL - was impactful on defense. We don't give him too many looks on offense. He gets the high post, looks for the backdoor pass, and then gives the ball up. Again and again. He does not do much off of his picks. He doesn't dive hard enough to the basket and he isn't showing that he can be a rim finisher off of the pick and roll. Still, he looks quite a bit improved overall.
- Spinoso - is very active and I love his effort.
- Our offense - I don't really understand our team and its roles. We have a guy like MLL getting the ball up high, even though he doesn't seem to have the Brodeur drives to the hoop. We have Monroe bring the ball up, even though he has a scary dribble. We don't pass that crisply and quickly, even though we don't have the strongest ball handlers (except maybe Slajchert).
- Our defense - while they performed fine overall, I don't really understand our scheme. None of our players looked like lockdown players and our scheme doesn't seem to be stopping other teams. Colgate got to the hoop at will - they just missed a lot.
- I don't know what Donohue sees in practice, but please free Ed Holland. I want to see more of what he's capable of.

Congrats to the team on a quality win!



 
mbaprof 
Senior
Posts: 342

Age: 66
Reg: 12-24-11
Re: Colgate
11-27-22 08:15 AM - Post#347140    
    In response to Chip Bayers

Great game at the Palestra, sub 2000 people but loud and enthusiastic both ways, expect more of the same with Delaware today. We came back quickly from 13-0, when we were +13 on points and 6 to 1 on money line. Colgate was pretty tired at the end after their battle against Delaware Friday, Delaware got to rest their key players against Hartford, but we have depth at 10+ guys, although i expect it to impact game today.

 
Streamers 
Professor
Posts: 8141
Streamers
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Colgate
11-27-22 09:50 AM - Post#347141    
    In response to SomeGuy

  • SomeGuy Said:

Defense overall was good. While, as others have pointed out, Records in particular had his way inside, some of that is how we chose to play the perimeter. We weren’t going to leave shooters open, so Spinoso and MLL were on an island in there. The perimeter defense was stellar against a tough opponent, and really a team effort.


All true, but we also noticed that there were some good examples of help defense down low in the 2nd half, but that was also around the time Smith started going off.

The Hartford thread mentioned the difficulties with the attempts to use our bigs down low in the offense. Clearly, Steve wants to diversify from the high-post guard-dominant offense Penn loves and they tried at the start to do just that. This transition is proving very difficult though, and somewhere around 13-0, in goes Mosh, a clearly frustrated Dingle takes over and the rest is history.

Looking ahead to this afternoon, the very good Hens starters got some needed rest yesterday so Penn may not be able to wear them down quite as much but we got a good look at their bench yesterday and I got the sense our second line guys would do well against them. I suspect there will be plenty of fodder for the rotation debate today. FWIW Penn is a 3.5 point favorite.

 
SomeGuy 
Professor
Posts: 6391

Reg: 11-22-04
11-27-22 10:58 AM - Post#347144    
    In response to Penndemonium

On the offense questions/roles. Where else would you get MLL the ball? It seems to me he is playing a role that works for him. He passes well from up there, he sets screens, and he can roll off the screens and finish when there isn’t much traffic in there. Obviously he isn’t the threat to drive or shoot that AJ was, but that is ok. He doesn’t have to be. He’s not a low post player, so I’m not seeing a lot of other options for where he should be in the offense.

On Monroe, I continue to think it’s great that he brings it up. He tends to get a matchup where his defender isn’t as comfortable pressuring the ball as the guys guarding Dingle or Clark. Obviously he was at the center of a couple of bad possessions against the press late, but his problem on a couple of those was actually that he didn’t dribble the ball up the court.

Finally, I think the lack of crisp passing is a little bit of what you live with to spring Dingle and Clark. This isn’t the pretty motion offense that some Donahue teams run. This looks to get it to Dingle and Clark in spots where they can get a shot off the dribble. I don’t think it’s a lack of identity or roles — I think it is a focus on what our best two offensive players do, and they drive what the roles are around them.

 
SomeGuy 
Professor
Posts: 6391

Reg: 11-22-04
Re: Colgate
11-27-22 11:15 AM - Post#347145    
    In response to Streamers

Do you mean Baker started going off? Smith made two field goals the whole game, and one was the first basket of the game.

 
Streamers 
Professor
Posts: 8141
Streamers
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
Re: Colgate
11-27-22 01:40 PM - Post#347146    
    In response to SomeGuy

  • SomeGuy Said:
Do you mean Baker started going off? Smith made two field goals the whole game, and one was the first basket of the game.


Yes I meant Baker. I went to correct it and it was too late. I have to stop writing these before my second cup of coffee.

 
Penndemonium 
PhD Student
Posts: 1878

Reg: 11-29-04
11-27-22 02:41 PM - Post#347148    
    In response to SomeGuy

My issue is that you would always prefer to have a dual threat (often drive or shoot) from someone up high. Brodeur at the end of his career was a quadruple threat (pass, drive, shoot, pick and roll). MLL is only a threat to provide the backdoor pass right now. That might work once or twice a game. If the idea is to pull his defender out of the paint, sooner or later his defenders will sag off of him because he is such a non-threat out there. They certainly will after Ivy scouting. I thought he did a fine job yesterday, but having him touch it up high won't serve much purpose after he gets his first backdoor assist. His role on offense should be simply to set screens and get offensive rebounds/tips. He's pretty good at both. I'd love for him to learn how to be a rim runner off of the pick and roll. I like MLL and think he's improved a lot. Maybe his skills will open up. I just didn't think it was great offensive design for the present.

Monroe looks VERY uncomfortable dribbling under pressure. He scrunches down and loses timing of his handle under pressure. He doesn't have a tight handle sprinting down the court, so he's never a threat to break free if he beats the pressure - his defenders get a second shot at catching up and pressuring him. He does a pretty good job passing out of pressure, which makes him bringing the ball down the court survivable - but it's a scary exercise to watch. Slajchert seems to do well at it, even with a double team. He's fast enough to pull out of a double team, split the defense, or go around to either side. He has enough passing vision to see who is open when he is double teamed. His only liability bringing the ball down the court is height. He's undefendable in the open court one-on-one. He's one of the better options we've had to break pressure himself in a long while. Dingle isn't really a threat in the same way, but he handles a double team by just bursting through the middle. He is so strong that he will either succeed or get fouled.

  • SomeGuy Said:
On the offense questions/roles. Where else would you get MLL the ball? It seems to me he is playing a role that works for him. He passes well from up there, he sets screens, and he can roll off the screens and finish when there isn’t much traffic in there. Obviously he isn’t the threat to drive or shoot that AJ was, but that is ok. He doesn’t have to be. He’s not a low post player, so I’m not seeing a lot of other options for where he should be in the offense.

On Monroe, I continue to think it’s great that he brings it up. He tends to get a matchup where his defender isn’t as comfortable pressuring the ball as the guys guarding Dingle or Clark. Obviously he was at the center of a couple of bad possessions against the press late, but his problem on a couple of those was actually that he didn’t dribble the ball up the court.

Finally, I think the lack of crisp passing is a little bit of what you live with to spring Dingle and Clark. This isn’t the pretty motion offense that some Donahue teams run. This looks to get it to Dingle and Clark in spots where they can get a shot off the dribble. I don’t think it’s a lack of identity or roles — I think it is a focus on what our best two offensive players do, and they drive what the roles are around them.




 
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