Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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05-02-23 02:38 PM - Post#356105
[I'm creating a new thread b/c I don't want to continue seeing the "Now What" frustration thread of Jeff2SF at the top of the page. I share frustration, but don't need to see the petulant conversations about who's right or wrong as a part of it.]
NYCHoops, no need to let our speculation draw you out on the personal decisions of JD.
That said, what I hear you saying (and from the frustration in your voice) is that Dingle wanted very much to stay in his heart, but a combination of other factors (confidence in the team and coaches, likelihood to make the NCAAs, preparation for NBA, role on the team, visibility at the next level, competition, or treatment of athletics by the universities) were key reasons. You were explicit that NIL wasn't a real factor, though I think we are all happy for him to benefit from that as much as possible.
You've also been vocal that the coaching staff isn't doing all of the right things on recruiting. While this year's recruiting class looks improved, the overall track record definitely supports your view.
While it seems implicit that you would like to see a coaching change, what would you recommend to the current coaching staff to turn the program into the one we think the University, players, and fans (us) deserve? I'm thinking of specific strategies and areas of overhaul in terms of recruiting, game strategy, program, etc. within the realities of the Ivy League.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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05-02-23 08:07 PM - Post#356108
In response to Penndemonium
In response to the comment about lack of talent around him, it's not about whether he respects his team-mates. It's about whether he thinks he is in a position to win the league overall. He may see some shortcoming somewhere.
What else does he have to accomplish at Penn? Scoring records? I doubt that was his motivation in the least. He's accomplished everything else basketball-wise. I still hope he can get his degree too. Great Quaker.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32834
Reg: 11-21-04
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05-02-23 08:28 PM - Post#356111
In response to Penndemonium
Again, if NBA scouts and agents have told him he has to demonstrate he can put up numbers at a higher level, winning the Ivies is wholly irrelevant.
The problem this year had nothing to do with talent level. We had the talent to be up 17 at Princeton at halftime and blew games with leads at Cornell and Dartmouth. We should have won the League. Blaming it on talent level is just false. Blaming it on getting outcoached is far more realistic, and may have contributed to his decision. Still, if the reason is to display his talent to the NBA by playing high level competition, the talent level is just not a factor in his decision.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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05-03-23 12:13 AM - Post#356113
In response to palestra38
I wasn't saying it was necessarily talent. Talent, coaching, whatever. I'm just saying that he might not have wanted to bet his last year on us winning the league. Even if he saw thought we have the best team next year, it's still a big bet - because of the Ivy tournament. There is enough league parity to make that a risky bet.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32834
Reg: 11-21-04
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05-03-23 07:18 AM - Post#356115
In response to Penndemonium
I don't think his decision had much to do with making the NCAA tournament--it's about making the NBA. He has been advised to show his talent at a higher level of competition over a season. I'm sure he wants to play in the NCAA's but I don't think that was the basis for this move.
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Condor
PhD Student
Posts: 1888
Reg: 11-21-04
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Dingle Transferring Continuation Thread
05-03-23 08:02 AM - Post#356117
In response to palestra38
There are 30 teams in the NBA. That means that 60 players get drafted with about 50 from college. Tosan went to the sweet 16, was clearly the only possible NBA caliber player on his team, and he is ranked 95 according to The Athletic draft rankings . Dingle is not in the top 100.
The level of play in the Ivy’s has improved from top to bottom. However, if an NBA team wants to roll the dice on Dingle, it will be much easier to evaluate that risk if he is playing for a team such as Kentucky rather than Penn. For that matter, it would be easier for the posters on this board to make that call.
I think there is a pathway to the NBA if Jordan stays at Penn. However, it probably isn’t through the draft. For that reason, one really can’t blame Jordan for making this decision or anyone else.
Edited by Condor on 05-03-23 08:08 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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10Q
Professor
Posts: 23396
Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
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05-03-23 10:53 AM - Post#356118
In response to Condor
No one is blaming Jordan. We can all basically blame our rinky-dink program.
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Condor
PhD Student
Posts: 1888
Reg: 11-21-04
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05-03-23 11:25 AM - Post#356119
In response to 10Q
My point is that unless you can and want to change all the Ivy rules that limit admissions, blaming the player, coach, or anyone else isn't going to change the impact of the transfer portal. Ivy BB loses with this just as it did with at-large bids, our self-imposed AI, no scholarships, etc.
Time will tell, but it would not surprise me if the Ivy's never get another Sweet 16 run again.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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05-03-23 12:28 PM - Post#356120
In response to Condor
Time will tell, but it would not surprise me if the Ivy's never get another Sweet 16 run again.
This exact thing has been said many times after March 2010 and prior to March 2023.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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05-03-23 12:28 PM - Post#356121
In response to Condor
Is the transfer portal always going to be like this, or did the pandemic transfer and eligibility exemptions make this an unusually active period?
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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05-03-23 12:36 PM - Post#356122
In response to palestra38
Again, if NBA scouts and agents have told him he has to demonstrate he can put up numbers at a higher level, winning the Ivies is wholly irrelevant.
Based on all things I have heard this is very much the leading reason JD is transferring. All the other reasons cited play a part, but a distant part relative to this.
Consider the timing. If NIL was a factor he would have left last year. According to my sources, he was coming back as of March. He declared for the draft, which allows NBA personnel and scouts to provide feedback and puts him on their radar. He waits until the end of the portal window to add his name (which likely means his destination options were pre arranged to include 1 or 2 schools). This was a surprise to the coaches as I understand it. While he may have considered this option previously or was contemplating it this year, he clearly got information about his NBA potential after declaring that pushed him over the edge to enter the portal.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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05-03-23 12:51 PM - Post#356123
In response to Penndemonium
Is the transfer portal always going to be like this, or did the pandemic transfer and eligibility exemptions make this an unusually active period?
It's here to stay. The portal was active well before Covid. It started in October of 2018 as a centralized platform for transfers and schools. Prior to this it was tough for players to get their name out. They had to get permission to transfer and then a compliance officer would have to reach out to all schools the player had interest in. It was burdensome and inefficient.
The portal eliminated all that process. Now a player can enter and their risk is the school they are attending can pull their scholarship at the end of that term if they decide not to transfer. Only coaches and administrators have access to the portal and any player can enter without telling their coach. Once a player tells their schools compliance officer they want to transfer, the name has to be entered within 48 hours at which point any coach can contact that player.
Here is how the D1 Basketball transfer list has grown:
Prior to the portal there was between 400-600 transfers on average.
2018: 866
2019: 987
2020: 1,002
2021: 1,711
2022: 1,761
2023: 1,639 so far with portal closing May 11
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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05-03-23 02:18 PM - Post#356124
In response to PennFan10
But during the pandemic, didn't they waive the need to sit out a year and grant players an extra year of eligibility? Might that be a significant contributor to the number of transfers from 2019 to now? I don't know whether those will persist. I was thinking that might increase the There may be more players who opt to spend the extra year at a different school.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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05-03-23 02:21 PM - Post#356125
In response to Penndemonium
The trend don 400-1,000 all happened pre pandemic. Then it jumped to 1,700. It could settle back down but the trend, even from non covid transfers is clear.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21204
Reg: 12-02-04
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05-03-23 02:43 PM - Post#356126
In response to PennFan10
Would also be interesting to see a breakout of grad transfers vs. all other transfers.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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05-03-23 04:56 PM - Post#356127
In response to penn nation
About 30% are graduate transfers. Don't have the 2023 numbers obviously:
2021:
1,198 transfers (1,700 entered portal)
815 Undergrad, 383 graduate transfers
2022:
1,123 transfers (over 1,700 in portal)
786 undergrad, 337 graduate
2023 will probably exceed the numbers for those entering portal.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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05-03-23 06:39 PM - Post#356129
In response to PennFan10
By the way, the percentages of Graduate transfer to Undergrad transfer (30-31%) is true of all Div 1 transfers in all sports, not just basketball.
And roughly 30% of those who enter the transfer portal don't end up at a new school.
Here is the data for anyone interested: https://www.ncaa.org/sports/2022/4/25/tran sfer-por...
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JDP
Masters Student
Posts: 577
Reg: 11-23-04
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05-03-23 09:10 PM - Post#356130
In response to PennFan10
Another factor to consider is that in April 2021 the NCAA allowed athletes in all sports to transfer once without sitting a season.
Immediate eligibility and NIL enticements have forever changed the paradigm of college athletics. I do not believe any school should expect that its top players will remain for four years unless some party can match any NIL offer away.
Mid majors who benefit from developing senior laden classes, likely see that phenomenon disappear as the overlooked 1-2 star kids that develop into 4-5 star kids are at risk of being poached.
The Ivies are at a further disadvantage as the student-athlete may go from having to pay something, to being on scholarship and getting NIL revenue that does not offset against any need based aid.
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Condor
PhD Student
Posts: 1888
Reg: 11-21-04
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05-04-23 09:08 AM - Post#356138
In response to JDP
Transfer portal rankings by CBS sports:
14. Jordan Dingle
Old school: Penn
Dingle led the Ivy League in scoring by nearly five points per game for a Penn squad that finished third in the league. This past season, the 6-3 guard totaled 23.4 points per contest on 46.4% shooting, which included a 35.6% mark from beyond the arc. Over three years of competition, he performed well against the likes of Alabama, Providence, Arizona, Villanova, Florida State and Missouri. In eight career games against power conference opposition, Dingle is averaging 21.9 points on 46.8% shooting and 44.4% 3-point shooting. That suggests he's got what it takes to be a big-time contributor for a high-major program.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21204
Reg: 12-02-04
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05-04-23 09:42 AM - Post#356139
In response to Condor
Surprising that they don't note his ability to frequently get to the line and hit his FTs, which was a quality he did not possess when first arriving at Penn.
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