penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21210
Reg: 12-02-04
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05-10-23 03:41 PM - Post#356235
In response to Penndemonium
I don't think any of us would be upset with nychoops' report, given all of the criticism on this board about pretty much every aspect of the Penn basketball program.
And we are all rooting for Jordan Dingle. Penn was fortunate to have him.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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05-10-23 04:40 PM - Post#356237
In response to penn nation
nychoops has always had informed opinions.
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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05-10-23 05:21 PM - Post#356238
In response to Penndemonium
there's no guess here, it's been obvious for a while. The team doesn't want to recruit hard and you all enable them with no accountability. It's your fault.
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Cvonvorys
Postdoc
Posts: 4484
Loc: Princeton, New Jersey
Reg: 10-11-06
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05-10-23 06:29 PM - Post#356240
In response to Jeff2sf
Dude… How is it my fault? I’ve stopped going to games (5-6 per year was usual) and I’ve stopped contributing to Annual Giving, repeatedly citing my displeasure with the Men’s Basketball program. No one cares about nasty letters from a guy who donates $100 bucks a year and pays a couple hundred bucks in tickets and food.
Please let me know what you’ve done to improve the state of Penn Men’s Basketball, and I do so hope it’s more than just your hysterical rants on this board…
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6413
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Dingle Transferring Continuation Thread
05-10-23 06:31 PM - Post#356241
In response to rbg
Certainly agree that nychoops is informed, and I think his intent is to be respectful. My concern with the view (and why I wonder if, while informed, it isn’t exactly what Jordan would say) is that it seems to reflect poorly on the other kids on the team. So while it may be supportive of Jordan, and it may be in line with the view of most of the alumni on the board, I’m not sure it is supportive of the kids remaining on the team. They’re probably not sitting around thinking, man, if only we had better players than me, Jordan would still be here!
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3618
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Dingle Transferring Continuation Thread
05-10-23 06:46 PM - Post#356242
In response to SomeGuy
Certainly agree that nychoops is informed, and I think his intent is to be respectful. My concern with the view (and why I wonder if, while informed, it isn’t exactly what Jordan would say) is that it seems to reflect poorly on the other kids on the team. So while it may be supportive of Jordan, and it may be in line with the view of most of the alumni on the board, I’m not sure it is supportive of the kids remaining on the team. They’re probably not sitting around thinking, man, if only we had better players than me, Jordan would still be here!
I've been pretty clear about how I view the program's progress and trajectory as a fan and don't want to rehash it (two word summary is, not great). I've also always aimed to be respectful even when I disagree pretty strongly with some takes posted here.
I think the majority of us have also been very respectful and thankful to all the players past and present that represent Penn. I'm not here to criticize any specific college kid trying to do their best for their school.
With that said, we are fans of a sporting team and we want them to WIN. If not, why the heck would we spend so much time caring? If we aren't going to compete to win championships and instead want to accept mediocrity, myself and others will continue to fade away because frankly that would be a waste of my time. Not to mention, just about 0 new fans are being created right now. Mediocrity doesn't create new fans.
This isn't my 5 year olds soccer league, every team does not get a trophy at the end of the season. After Jordan makes his choice, I and many others want to hear the reality of the situation and welcome nychoops comments. He is not criticizing the kids still here. They are here to do their best, they did not construct the roster, they did not recruit the roster.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32835
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Dingle Transferring Continuation Thread
05-10-23 07:51 PM - Post#356244
In response to Mike Porter
I'll have to wait for nychoops' comments, but it won't surprise me in the least if a significant part of Jordan's discouragment was the in-game coaching. He saw other teams work plays when we played isolation and other teams making adjustments at halftime and beating us. I just wonder whether he would have left if we did win the championship, which we clearly should have done.
But we'll know his thoughts pretty soon.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8258
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Dingle Transferring Continuation Thread
05-10-23 09:43 PM - Post#356246
In response to Mike Porter
“With that said, we are fans of a sporting team and we want them to WIN. If not, why the heck would we spend so much time caring? If we aren't going to compete to win championships and instead want to accept mediocrity, myself and others will continue to fade away because frankly that would be a waste of my time. Not to mention, just about 0 new fans are being created right now. Mediocrity doesn't create new fans.”
This is what worries me. I doubt many of us would be here if Penn had been a dwarf when we were in school. Who is going to care about Penn hoops in 20 years? The alums on campus now? The students who stopped caring a decade ago? The city with no big5? Only winning can keep the Palestra site from becoming another overpriced dormitory.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6413
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Dingle Transferring Continuation Thread
05-10-23 10:33 PM - Post#356247
In response to Mike Porter
It’s the last part about recruiting that troubles me. The take seems to be: it’s not about you, it’s about the recruiting. But every one of those kids was told by those very same coaches some variation of you are the player we want. The players didn’t recruit the roster, but these are the kids that the coaches chose. I don’t think you can separate the two.
On the other stuff we all agree. The debate is always about how you get back to the top of the league. I don’t want to be mediocre any more than you do.
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Cvonvorys
Postdoc
Posts: 4484
Loc: Princeton, New Jersey
Reg: 10-11-06
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Re: Dingle Transferring Continuation Thread
05-10-23 11:08 PM - Post#356250
In response to SomeGuy
Steve Danley… if you still peruse this board, could you please weigh in on what Penn recruits are told…
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Dingle Transferring Continuation Thread
05-10-23 11:18 PM - Post#356251
In response to SomeGuy
and yet you continually absolve steve and staff of any responsibility.
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weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
Posts: 2139
Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 12-14-09
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Re: Dingle Transferring Continuation Thread
05-11-23 01:03 AM - Post#356254
In response to SomeGuy
It’s the last part about recruiting that troubles me. The take seems to be: it’s not about you, it’s about the recruiting. But every one of those kids was told by those very same coaches some variation of you are the player we want. The players didn’t recruit the roster, but these are the kids that the coaches chose. I don’t think you can separate the two.
On the other stuff we all agree. The debate is always about how you get back to the top of the league. I don’t want to be mediocre any more than you do.
If this is what the recruits are hearing, then the next thing to look at is player development.
That's on the coaching staff.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6413
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Dingle Transferring Continuation Thread
05-11-23 10:05 AM - Post#356259
In response to Jeff2sf
I’d just say that my take isn’t as draconian as your’s. Not my intent to absolve anyone of anything. At a certain point, you are what your record says you are. We’re better than where we were under the prior two coaches. We’re not where we’d like to be. I’m sure the coaches feel the same way about where we are.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3618
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Dingle Transferring Continuation Thread
05-11-23 01:08 PM - Post#356261
In response to SomeGuy
It’s the last part about recruiting that troubles me. The take seems to be: it’s not about you, it’s about the recruiting. But every one of those kids was told by those very same coaches some variation of you are the player we want. The players didn’t recruit the roster, but these are the kids that the coaches chose. I don’t think you can separate the two.
On the other stuff we all agree. The debate is always about how you get back to the top of the league. I don’t want to be mediocre any more than you do.
We've literally discussed recruiting on this board since as long as it has existed, in fact, since before it existed. We certainly talked about it with Glen Miller and Jerome Allen, but they had a slew of other problems beyond recruiting.
Yet for some reason, because Steve is a nice guy, you seem unable to address the elephant on the board (or in this case, apparently don't even want to hear about the elephant on the board from a trusted source?). I say this genuinely, I do think from outside looking in that Steve is a very good guy, great representative of Penn, etc. and I'll be damned if I didn't wish he was a good recruiter as well. That would be perfect situation for Penn, but unfortunately the results speak to the reality.
Ask anyone who has followed Penn Basketball Recruiting on the board what they think, the pattern has been clear throughout. The staff is excellent at identifying quality recruits early, but is generally terrible at closing the sale (and ultimately that is what recruiting is). It is extremely, extremely rare that they identify a top recruit early and get them to commit. In some of these years recruiting, they've not only had to go to plan B, but to plan C and beyond (or no recruit at all). This isn't me making it up, this is the reality anyone who follows can observe based on the timing of offers, commitments, and/or lack of commitments (especially when you look at position needs and very small classes).
This doesn't mean they haven't recruited some excellent players, they have, but not consistently and not with enough depth to have a single top 100 team in 7 seasons. I like the potential of the incoming class, but you have to string multiple quality classes together to be a championship, top 100 team.
Look back... this coaching staff has been unable to string together even back to back deep/quality classes. This is why our all time leading scorer AJ, had only one championship and a best 125 ranked team and why Dingle, who would have broken that record, had no championships and a best 126 ranked team.
I don't know what nychoops is going to say, I have some guesses, but even if what he says is different than what I think is happening, I want to hear it and I'd be happy to be proven wrong.
End of the day, what we know is that Penn basketball simply isn't good enough. That means recruiting, player development, and/or strategy/in-game coaching is subpar, right? Regardless, all of these are the responsibility of the coaching staff.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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Dingle Transferring Continuation Thread
05-11-23 04:21 PM - Post#356262
In response to Mike Porter
Look, it's hard to dispute anything you've all said. I've been hoping for years that Steve D. was a few recruits away from a breakthrough because he seems to be a great guy. This year's class is a possible sign of improvement, but it's obviously not fair to point to one year as a trend - plus we don't know at this point how good the class will actually be. He's had enough time to judge him by his own track record. The next few years don't look great. Our team has peaked at middle of the league.
Contrary to others, I think he has historically been a pretty good game coach. I wasn't impressed this year, but I'm assuming that Steve D. hasn't lost his ability to strategize. I don't think he's a great defensive coach period. That creates volatility in team performance, which makes it hard to win a conference. He's pretty good at player development. He runs a pretty tight ship. Recruiting seems to be our most limiting factor.
I accept nychoops' past criticism on recruiting as truth, at least from the datapoints he has. There's a chance that he didn't know the full story on why Penn didn't recruit certain players hard enough, but clearly the recruiting end results haven't been that great. We lose a lot of other recruits to other teams in-conference, and none of his classes have been excellent. His best class was built from the pipeline of Jerome Allen's recruiting.
I just am a bit jaded and tired by NCAA sports these days to do more than support the team, hope they represent the school well, and hope the students have great school and life learning experiences.
I'm not an apologist. I am not dismissing any of the criticisms or frustration. But college sports has gotten so warped and that the price of winning now is in conflict with what I hope for student athletes.
I'm also not a fan of NIL. I don't think it's right to deny athletes the right to make money, but I also think college sports should be amateur. I don't get why it is really supportive of a University's mission anymore to create a P5 atmosphere around athletics, recruiting, and winning. Many student athletes will now make more than any faculty at their schools. I described in a previous post that P5 coaches are now dealing with kids who are making millions. They are much harder to coach, as they make much more than their assistant coaches. Let them develop in semi-pro leagues instead of college.
It's just not worth my time to scream anymore for people to be fired. I'll be fine if they fire the staff, and I'll be fine if they don't. Neither outcome will make me or any of us a better person. If our life satisfaction depends on it, be worried.
Go Quakers.
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nychoops
Junior
Posts: 243
Reg: 11-23-04
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05-12-23 08:57 AM - Post#356264
In response to Penndemonium
Jordan will announce he's playing at St John's today. Once it settles in I'll say my peace next week. But it's important for me to say I apologize profusely if any of my post at anytime was perceived as a dig to any of the kids who play/played for Penn. To be able to play at this level both athletically and academically is beyond my imagination and I have the utmost respect for each and every one of them. The men and women who do so shoujd be respected. If anything I've said or will say in contrary to that statement it's unintentional
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8258
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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05-12-23 09:13 AM - Post#356265
In response to nychoops
Well, that means I will be following St Johns hoops for the first time in decades. Pitino and his army of transfers are going to be a very interesting watch. Jordan should see lots of minutes assuming he stays healthy.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32835
Reg: 11-21-04
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05-12-23 09:46 AM - Post#356266
In response to Streamers
https://nypost.com/2023/05/12/st-johns-l ands-explo...
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Penn90
Masters Student
Posts: 574
Reg: 11-22-04
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05-12-23 09:47 AM - Post#356267
In response to Streamers
I guess JD was really impressed when Iona crushed Penn
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rbg
Postdoc
Posts: 3058
Reg: 10-20-14
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05-12-23 10:17 AM - Post#356269
In response to nychoops
While waiting for your thoughtful comments next week, do you know if Jordan is going to be graduating from Penn on Monday or this summer, or will he be getting his undergraduate diploma from St. John's?
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