SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6415
Reg: 11-22-04
|
Re: Dingle Transferring Continuation Thread
05-15-23 02:44 PM - Post#356316
In response to SteveDanley
Thanks for the thoughts. Great insights as always (including fascinating tidbits re recruiting your year). No idea if you were reading the board as a player (I kind of hope not!), but we had a lot of discussion about Pettinella’s ultimate transfer, etc. There’s always somebody who isn’t playing much that the board insists should play more. Right now it’s Eddie Holland. For a little while, it was Pettinella. Always wondered whether the staff just knew more than we did about what they had in Zoller and kept it to themselves, or whether things developed differently from what even they expected. So interesting they thought he was a 3 like everybody else did.
|
borschtbelt
Freshman
Posts: 60
Age: 74
Reg: 07-27-20
|
Re: Dingle Transferring Continuation Thread
05-15-23 03:04 PM - Post#356317
In response to SomeGuy
Zoller--they knew. Unless I am mixing up two events, I ran into Dunphy in the end zone of a football game. The Wisconsin (I think) bball game followed. I think it was Zoller's first game. Dunphy said to me, "You're going to love this guy."
Sorry if my memory placed events out of sequence.
|
SteveDanley
Sophomore
Posts: 102
Age: 39
Reg: 02-25-12
|
Re: Dingle Transferring Continuation Thread
05-16-23 12:52 PM - Post#356323
In response to SomeGuy
As far as guys not playing, one of the bizarre dynamics of college basketball is that
1) assistants and the head coach often have "their guys" with the skill sets they prioritize. For Dunph, it was toughness, not turning the ball over, decision-making. Coach J tended to value athletes a little higher. Duke was the offensive coordinator and wanted more shooters playing. Obviously, head coaches matter the most -- and assistants often advocate for their guys (who are often guys they saw potential in and recruited).
2) When you see a guy sitting, it probably means your take on the player is more aligned with the assistant that recruited him and that you value what he does well. There's normally other flaws (I'm not going to get into specific flaws of teammates, but I have some *stories* for the real die-hards if you ever catch me out over a beer).
3) The best players, of course, transcend all this. But I'm not sure folks realize how small the gap in role players is at the college hoops level. My take is that often the difference between your 4th and as low as 10th or 12th guy is quite marginal -- it depends on situation, opportunity, fit, and some coincidence (did you hit a few shots at a high leverage time? Did a particular assistant love your game?). If you're not being asked to carry the team, there are a lot of guys who can succeed in the right situation, but aren't good enough to succeed in any situation.
This is more obvious in pickup and practice -- hard to see in games where bench players play very limited roles if they're not regularly in the rotation. That's why a guy like Pettinella (who was clearly faster, stronger, and a better finisher than me) could start (!) at UVA, and struggled to find a regular role for us. They valued his skills, whereas Dunph tended to default to mine (better passer, fit better in offense, better communicator on D etc).
4) In my opinion, the best coaches are the ones who can *imagine* the ways a particular player would succeed -- then build up and create those circumstances. The far more common practice is to try to force role players into already-created archetypes by trying to get them to improve on their weaknesses. This is another reason guys sit -- because the coach thinks he needs a specific thing from the 4th or 5th guy on the floor, and doesn't think a player provides that thing.
|
penn92
Freshman
Posts: 19
Reg: 03-13-06
|
Re: Dingle Transferring Continuation Thread
05-16-23 04:34 PM - Post#356326
In response to SteveDanley
Steve - great insights, thanks for taking time to share. I particularly appreciate point 4 - a leadership lesson that applies far beyond just basketball. In fact there's a whole lot of broad leadership and team-building points throughout what you've written here.
|
Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8316
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
|
Re: Dingle Transferring Continuation Thread
05-16-23 05:44 PM - Post#356327
In response to penn92
Let me add to that. The best coaches in nearly all the major sports (baseball is a different animal altogether) fit their 'systems' around the skills and styles of the players they have - and not the other way around; that said - it's not the just the combinations you have out there; but the way they work together. Coaches always look for system fits, but roster building at the collegiate level is even more complex because the player you recruit is often not the player you end up with after 4 years of coaching and physical maturity.
Anyway, thanks Steve, as always for the player perspective.
|
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6415
Reg: 11-22-04
|
Re: Dingle Transferring Continuation Thread
05-20-23 02:08 PM - Post#356372
In response to Streamers
One interesting thing about the criticisms of Steve’s offense with Dingle is that before Dingle got here, I think everyone would have described Steve as an offensive system coach. Fairly even scoring, established sets, motion offense, specific spots where guys get the ball and shoot the ball. Based on the rest of his career, the “let Jordan go to work” offense would appear to be an approach that was based on having Jordan.
|
weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
Posts: 2143
Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 12-14-09
|
Re: Dingle Transferring Continuation Thread
05-20-23 06:41 PM - Post#356378
In response to SomeGuy
I would tend to agree with that characterization of SD as a system coach.
It will be interesting to see what next season's offense looks like. My guess is that a fair amount of it will run through Spinoso, either at the high post or on the low block. I think Holland and Thrower could be slasher types, if the spacing is good. Slajchert and Martz will hopefully have room to operate as well.
Edited by weinhauers_ghost on 05-20-23 06:43 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
|
Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1903
Reg: 11-29-04
|
05-22-23 02:15 AM - Post#356394
In response to weinhauers_ghost
I would agree. I think that SD's system tended to work best with great passers and shooters. It works that much better if those roles include the big men. Donahue really did develop Max Rothschild and AJ Brodeur. I really think Mike Wang could have become a good SD player, but his health was a limiting factor. He was showing all around good passing, shooting, and rebounding for a while.
We all know that we haven't recruited players that fit this mold very well. A peak for our team was having Brodeur, Rothschild, Betley, and Wood on the same time. Those were four players who had a good mix of passing and shooting for their position.
There are tons of players who were good but not specifically in that way. Matt Howard, Devon Goodman, Antonio Woods, Tyler Hamilton, Jake Silpe, Eddie Scott, Jelani Williams, etc. They were all good for the team, but weren't a good enough fit for the system to help us stand out from the league.
On last year's team, our most assists came from Spinoso at 3.1 mpg. We weren't a bad 3 point shooting team, but our best 3FG% shooters were low usage (Smith, Holland, and Moshkovitz). Our highest usage 3pt shooters were Dingle and Slajchert at around 35% 3FG%. Only Martz shot with a high percentage and reasonable usage.
In sum, I'd agree with the point. Without passing and a bevy of shooters, we relied on Dingle's all around game to compete. He was almost good enough to get us there.
Next year, I'd like to see Smith and Holland out there more and shooting more. I'd like to see Slajchert shooting a much higher percentage. I'd like to see Ubochi strong on the glass and still able to pass from the post. I'd like to see Charles and Thrower showing more of an all-around game.
|
13otto
Masters Student
Posts: 779
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Reg: 11-22-04
|
05-22-23 08:07 AM - Post#356396
In response to Penndemonium
Next year, I'd like to see Smith and Holland out there more and shooting more. I'd like to see Slajchert shooting a much higher percentage. I'd like to see Ubochi strong on the glass and still able to pass from the post. I'd like to see Charles and Thrower showing more of an all-around game.
I thought Jonah Charles graduated. He was honored on senior night.
|
palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32877
Reg: 11-21-04
|
05-22-23 09:33 AM - Post#356399
In response to 13otto
He has no more eligibility at Penn. I haven't seen anything about him as to a grad transfer, though.
|
SteveChop
PhD Student
Posts: 1156
Reg: 07-28-07
|
05-22-23 10:38 AM - Post#356400
In response to palestra38
I'm not 100% certain but I believe that Jonah Charles had a job lined up as a result of the internship he had between his junior and senior years.
|
Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1903
Reg: 11-29-04
|
05-22-23 01:20 PM - Post#356401
In response to SteveChop
Yeah, sorry. That was careless on my part. Time has been really distorted for me over the last few years! 
|
SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6415
Reg: 11-22-04
|
05-22-23 07:17 PM - Post#356407
In response to Penndemonium
This is why I think there is a decent chance things run through Spinoso next year. He clearly fits the mold you are describing. No idea if Ubochi fits. Hopefully Gerhart and Ubochi both do.
|
weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
Posts: 2143
Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 12-14-09
|
05-22-23 08:24 PM - Post#356409
In response to SomeGuy
Since none of us have seen Ubochi play, it's impossible to say where his skill level is. He could be another Lorca-Lloyd type rim protector with limited offensive skills), or he could turn out to be more polished overall.
We won't know until we see him play.
|
mbaprof
Senior
Posts: 346
Age: 67
Reg: 12-24-11
|
05-22-23 08:31 PM - Post#356410
In response to SteveChop
Per linkedin, jonah is going pro at goldman sachs
|
T.P.F.K.A.D.W.
PhD Student
Posts: 1173
Loc: Our Nation's Capital
Reg: 01-18-05
|
05-22-23 09:19 PM - Post#356416
In response to mbaprof
So he's taking his talents to Wall Street.
|
weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
Posts: 2143
Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 12-14-09
|
05-22-23 09:52 PM - Post#356419
In response to T.P.F.K.A.D.W.
Nice move. Best of luck to him as he starts his professional career.
|
Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1903
Reg: 11-29-04
|
05-23-23 12:46 AM - Post#356426
In response to SomeGuy
This is why I think there is a decent chance things run through Spinoso next year. He clearly fits the mold you are describing. No idea if Ubochi fits. Hopefully Gerhart and Ubochi both do.
Spinoso needs to be just a little better at finishing (he has improved massively so far) and he needs to improve his free throw shooting. We can't feel comfortable giving him the ball at the end of the game if he can't sink free throws. He actually has decent form, but his timing is not smooth at all. He has a two piece shot, and he loses the benefit of his legs. His hand release could be a bit more uniform and firm. This is advice from this shaky shooter.
If he becomes a reliable finisher, he could be a monster in the pick and roll. He has decent feet, sets nice picks, and has good strength.
|
weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
Posts: 2143
Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 12-14-09
|
05-23-23 01:13 AM - Post#356428
In response to Penndemonium
Spinoso's 3 point percentage as a freshman was .583 (7 for 12). He was 0 for 9 this past season. I guess he was discouraged from taking those shots this past year. If he could hit 40% from the top of the key, he would be enough of a threat that doing so might distort defenses enough to give Slajchert (and perhaps Thrower) room to operate by drawing a big out to guard him.
|
palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32877
Reg: 11-21-04
|
05-23-23 08:24 AM - Post#356429
In response to weinhauers_ghost
40% is a pipe dream. Especially as an improvement from 0%. Spinoso has the raw talent to be a Lefko-type center. Good hands, some nice footwork inside---has to hit his FTs. But at this point, he's not going to be successfully converted to a high post center.
Without Dingle, this is Steve's chance to go back to his roots and create an offense that moves the ball far more than it has the past 2 years. But at this point, I see it as a fight for the playoff spot in a year where everything was pointing to a championship.
|
