SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6415
Reg: 11-22-04
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05-23-23 11:24 AM - Post#356439
In response to palestra38
For Spinoso, it’s the passing that makes him a potential high post center. He needs to turn it over less, but he has the instincts and ability to key the offense from that spot.
I think he is what he is as a shooter. He’ll take a three every 2 or 3 games, and he’ll hit around 1 out of 3. But at that rate of shot taking, it may take 2 years to come to 33% (just like his first two years). The small sample size means it takes a long time for those numbers to even out.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8316
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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05-23-23 11:40 AM - Post#356440
In response to SomeGuy
I certainly agree with this, but as was the case with AJ, the ability to hit a three or two early in games and force the D out really creates opportunities in the 'classic' SD offense.
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UPIA1968
PhD Student
Posts: 1122
Loc: Cornwall, PA
Reg: 11-20-06
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05-23-23 09:38 PM - Post#356451
In response to Streamers
Penn will not win because its big man makes threes. It will win if the other guys do.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8316
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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05-23-23 11:17 PM - Post#356452
In response to UPIA1968
A couple of early 3s from your point center isn’t enough to win games, but it sure helps if you are running a motion offense.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1903
Reg: 11-29-04
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05-24-23 10:11 AM - Post#356458
In response to Streamers
I think the real enabling thing for Brodeur was that he learned to make reads and pass well. That was why he was a good fit in the Donahue offense. The high post needs to be a dual or triple threat between driving the lane, shooting, or passing. That is why players like MLL were ineffective and why Spinoso wasn't enough to carry the frontcourt.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8316
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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05-24-23 11:04 AM - Post#356459
In response to Penndemonium
I think the real enabling thing for Brodeur was that he learned to make reads and pass well. That was why he was a good fit in the Donahue offense. The high post needs to be a dual or triple threat between driving the lane, shooting, or passing.
Yes. Spinoso gets 1.5/3 at the moment. Passing? check. Driving the lane? Needs to finish reliably with both hands. Shooting? Needs work, but like AJ, he only needs to be reliable from one spot, preferably the top of the key.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1903
Reg: 11-29-04
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05-24-23 04:08 PM - Post#356463
In response to Streamers
Yes. Brodeur was 2.5/3, so was a great Donahue center.
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Pete
Freshman
Posts: 12
Reg: 11-07-18
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05-28-23 12:58 PM - Post#356477
In response to Penndemonium
Wasn’t someone who perhaps is a student at Penn now suppose to give insight into why Jordan left and perhaps can add my Gus left as well? I don’t follow the team as closely as some on this board but I wonder is the issues with the team unrealistic expectations from us, the glory days consisted of the team having to really just beat one team it seems, are the coaches not doing a good job of projecting how good the recruits will be, to me I question see some of the rotations and gusts sitting for games and then all of a sudden are in the lineups and then out, seems to be wirg the exception of a few guys don’t seem to develop, some players never seem to develop a left hand or dribble with their heads up or get a shot off when guarded one on one, idk. For those that know what did Fran do that everyone liked? What lead to his leaving Penn? What did he not do well while at Penn? Thanks and enjoy your weekend
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3590
Reg: 02-15-15
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05-29-23 03:25 PM - Post#356483
In response to Pete
Yea NYChoops was supposed to come here and share some more detail.
Also, the idea that a bunch of fans like us have some idea of who should play or who shouldn't is pretty funny to me. Those that think Holland should have seen more time, how many of you were in all the practices and saw how well he understood plays and defensive rotations? There is obviously a reason he disappeared from the lineup and it's not because anyone on here knows more about basketball than the coaches. I suspect Holland played exactly the amount he was capable of playing.
As for the intermittent use of others on the roster, usually players who appear in the rotation for a game or two and then disappear are all about matchups (and not just on the offensive end). You can't score 20 on offense and give up 30 on defense and expect to play much. And that's saying something for a KP 280 defense.
As far as the offense, I have seen those who criticize SD for running isolation with Dingle vs motion offense we have seen in the past. Surely you don't think it's because Steve D forgot how to run the motion offense he ran before Dingle right? Maybe it's because isolating Dingle in ball screens was the best way to maximize touches for Dingle? Obviously when Slajchert was running at peak performance we had 2 guys who could operate in isolation sets.
I suspect we will see a lot more motion offense next year where extra passes result in open shots.
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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05-29-23 04:00 PM - Post#356485
In response to PennFan10
this is a disappointing backslide from you pf10. no one's "smarter" than the coaches. but everything is the coach's responsibility and for my money "matchups" is weak sauce because it becomes basically an unfalsifiable hypothesis.*
I do not doubt that steve structured the team around jordan's strength. But I think where we part company is that I think he only does that if he knows that playing the motion offense would make them a significantly worse team... WITH Jordan still part of the team. In other words, there's no way Steve scraps his offense for 10 or 20 spots of KenPom. That would be a dumb risk no one would take to build an offense around one player. He did it because he thinks there were 40 or 50 spots to gain... again WITH Jordan. We weren't where we needed to be with Jordan, he should have been fired. We're going to backslide, he needs to be fired. Don't defend him.
* - i have no opinion on holland honestly.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3590
Reg: 02-15-15
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05-30-23 03:27 PM - Post#356493
In response to Jeff2sf
Jeff, Interesting you took my post as defending the coaches. That wasn't my intention. I simply wanted to point out that they made decisions for reasons we don't know and those reasons weren't random. No one has to agree with SD and ultimately, I agree he has to own the outcome and be held accountable. You admit as much....in your opinion Steve scrapped the offense for 40-50 KP spots and a shot at the NCAA tourney. He was wrong.
Why he was wrong is open for debate but I don't think it was because he didn't play Holland and Thrower enough or because he had players with episodic appearances in the rotation.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32877
Reg: 11-21-04
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05-30-23 03:45 PM - Post#356494
In response to PennFan10
I don't think he was wrong to try and build around a special player.
BUT, I think he was outcoached on the court against Dartmouth and Princeton and had no answers when other teams made adjustments in the 2nd half. We blew a 13 point second half lead against Dartmouth and a 17 point halftime lead against Princeton. Had a lead at Yale with 6 to go and they ran away after that. Had a small lead against Cornell with 11 to go and got crushed thereafter too. Even had a lead early in the 2nd half in the 1st Princeton game and lost going away. Hell, even in the playoff game, we led by 1 with 2:51 to go.
There you have it---in every one of our Ivy losses, we led at some point in the 2nd half. Our wins were mostly easy ones--only Yale at home was close all the way.
When there is a pattern of 2nd half collapses, you have to look at the on-court coaching. We should have won the Ivies this year pretty easily in my opinion with the team we had. And clearly, some of the personnel moves were ones that could be second guessed--in particular playing Mosh far too many minutes when he really wasn't contributing at all. But 2 totally inexcusable losses and 3 others we certainly could have won but certainly should have won at least one of them cost us the season.
I can understand Dingle's frustrations. We had it in our grasp and let it get away despite his unbelievable play.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6415
Reg: 11-22-04
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05-30-23 04:13 PM - Post#356496
In response to palestra38
In defense of Mosh, we went 9-5 in conference with him playing as the starting center in ‘21-‘22 and then had the exact same record in ‘22-‘23 with him relegated to the deep bench. He played 73 minutes during the conference season. I don’t think we lost because of the 73 minutes our 10th guy played.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32877
Reg: 11-21-04
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05-30-23 04:42 PM - Post#356497
In response to SomeGuy
I didn't say we lost because of Mosh, I said the use of him until the middle of the Ivy season could be second guessed because he was making no contribution while on the Court. I think his stats speak for themselves on that.
But we lost because we blew leads in the second half --that's not on Mosh.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1903
Reg: 11-29-04
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05-30-23 05:55 PM - Post#356498
In response to palestra38
"We should have won the Ivies this year pretty easily in my opinion"
I don't think anyone else would agree with that. Most of us would have agree pre-season we had a decent chance, but by no means a greater than 50% probability that would justify "should" and "easily."
Happy for others to chime in if they disagree - but I'm not expecting it. Being picked to win in a toss-up league season didn't make us a prohibitive favorite. We didn't look like so much of a better team in talent when watching the games. We just looked like a contender.
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Penn90
Masters Student
Posts: 575
Reg: 11-22-04
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05-30-23 08:23 PM - Post#356500
In response to palestra38
We should have won the Ivies this year pretty easily in my opinion with the team we had.
Agree 100%
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1903
Reg: 11-29-04
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05-30-23 08:32 PM - Post#356501
In response to Penn90
OK, I stand corrected.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6415
Reg: 11-22-04
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05-30-23 10:34 PM - Post#356502
In response to palestra38
Well, he was first in assist rate on the team, and first in steal rate among guys who played at all. Rebounded decently, particularly on the defensive end. He did not excel in putting the ball in the basket himself. But he contributed when he played on both ends.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32877
Reg: 11-21-04
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05-31-23 08:06 AM - Post#356505
In response to SomeGuy
Not a Division 1 player. But I agree with you that Mosh wasn't the difference between winning and losing. What happened in the second half of the games I mentioned when Mosh wasn't on the court was the difference.
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Penn90
Masters Student
Posts: 575
Reg: 11-22-04
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05-31-23 09:40 AM - Post#356506
In response to Penndemonium
Sorry, Penndemonium, didn't mean to come of brusque.
It's just the disturbing string of late-game fades this past year really rankles.
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