pennsive
Junior
Posts: 200
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-20-24 04:25 PM - Post#363646
Pitino says his players are not athletic and move too slowly laterally to keep anyone in front of them laterally without fouling. As we have all bemoaned, that describes Penn to a tee. That explains why in a futile attempt to cover up for that deficiency, we pack the paint, give up wide open 3’s like crazy, and pretend we at a good rebounding team because of where we position our players. How many years have we heard commentators in national games and Dunphy say that a defense must make the three point shooter at least move off his spot because his shooting percentage goes significantly down when he shoots when moving. Here is the remedy given the players that we have this year: 3-2 or similar zone defense) not man to man, obviously, given lack of lateral quickness and ineffective switching) in which the three perimeter men stay out there at the three point line, and twin towers take on the rebounding. When, as will very often happen, the opponent drives by our three point defender, one of the “bigs” can at least make it contested two or give a hard foul when really necessary. want to see Chris Ubichi get 15 minutes a game in such a role. Assuming he will be a poor foul shooter, judging from watching him and his numbers, having him start and play the first 5 minutes each half, and five other minutes somewhere else, he won’t be targeted to exploit his weaknesses on offense because no team wants to start off a half with multiple fouls. On offense he can rebound and pick up garage points around the rim, and on defense he can protect the rim. Subbing for him can be the usual suspects. This would allow Holland, Smith and Perkins to play the small forward slot ( say Smith because he is the best defender of those three) and in the backcourt it would be Clark backed up by Brown, and Perkins, backed up by whoever can play the best dense and who doesn’t just stand around when Clark is doing his thing among the remaining candidates. Yes, we would only have 4 scoring threats, and it would require Steve to abandon his failed system in the face of reality, and it would require thinking outside the box. Next year, SD better do a much better job recruiting in the transfer pool, not to mention recruiting high school seniors for athleticism . From what I can see based on the videos, the group, except for the forward from Pittsburgh area who are coming in, looks like picks for his system than they appear to be very athletic. As for Dingle, it is ironic that Steve got Dingle to play better than Pitino has despite Pitino’s promoting Dingle as his top recruit and potential first round draft pick based on how he had played for Penn. I want to end this rant by saying that unlike some others who who say they are apathetic, I care very much about our program. I suspect that the” apathetic ones are are really disappointed and self protective by turning away given the unsuccessful way SD coached the team so far this year post defections and Will return if he adopts the strategies described or others that don’t keep repeating what have no chance of success.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32836
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Pitino and Penn
02-20-24 04:43 PM - Post#363647
In response to pennsive
No strategy would change the results from a very obvious lack of talent. We've lost 8 in a row in the League. 8 in a row. Not even Miller or Jerome at their worst attained this level of futility. You have to go back to '56-'57 to find a Penn team that won fewer than 4 Ivy games and only once did Penn win only 4 (Harter's 2nd year, when big things were right around the corner). This is shaping up to be the worst Penn team in Ivy history. Are big things right around the corner?
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rbg
Postdoc
Posts: 3058
Reg: 10-20-14
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02-20-24 05:53 PM - Post#363660
In response to palestra38
I hope you're correct and things will change, but I am not as optimistic.
Perhaps Penn's AD should figure out a plan B in case SD cannot make the necessary change.
Maybe someone already in the conference - Brett MacConnell (Princeton), Matt Kingsley (Yale), Justin Simon (Yale), Jon Jacques (Cornell)....
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8258
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Pitino and Penn
02-20-24 06:19 PM - Post#363664
In response to pennsive
I agree with much of this, but would add that SD has gone zone on several occasions this year (e.g. Nova) that I have seen. It has been pretty effective as a change of pace, but not proven to be sustainable once the opponent has adjusted. I would also add this is not a one size fits all approach, as it would work far better against some opponents than others.
One thing I want to point out is that everyone mentions losing Dingle and Martz as part of the problem this year, but I suggest that losing Monroe might be the most impactful for the reasons you pointed out above.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3618
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-20-24 06:58 PM - Post#363666
In response to Streamers
The defense last year was bad. “Losing” Monroe certainly made the defense worse, but he graduated after 4 years at the school, so doesn’t really factor for me. That’s why coaches have the ability to recruit new players every year.
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pennsive
Junior
Posts: 200
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-20-24 07:31 PM - Post#363669
In response to Mike Porter
A new coach next year, or a hastened holdover coach would do well to hold open tryouts next year, hoping to add to the roster the athleticism and brawn he has in woefully insufficient supply right now. I am confident there are at least three or four former defensive and offensive halfbacks , or tight ends , for example who were excellent high school basketball players but who find themselves getting no playing time in the sport they are playing, or who opted not to play varsity athletics the sport they were recruited to play at Penn. Athleticism , excitement in the student body, and a defense first philosophy , and what we would have as the makings of a better team. This has been tried at other schools and can work. Bringing in an assistant coach or head coach to preach UVA defense, to take the most obvious example, would take courage and an attitude adjustment that could be well rewarded.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3618
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Pitino and Penn
02-20-24 07:32 PM - Post#363671
In response to palestra38
No strategy would change the results from a very obvious lack of talent. We've lost 8 in a row in the League. 8 in a row. Not even Miller or Jerome at their worst attained this level of futility. You have to go back to '56-'57 to find a Penn team that won fewer than 4 Ivy games and only once did Penn win only 4 (Harter's 2nd year, when big things were right around the corner). This is shaping up to be the worst Penn team in Ivy history. Are big things right around the corner?
Hard to see any big things around the corner if nothing changes.
“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results”
Prediction:
- The coaching staff is given another year because they “deserve” it (not sure how considering they are well paid employees delivering mediocre results over a long period, but we know this kind of nonsensical thinking that will be used)
- Next year the team will have be slightly better than this year but still mediocre and anyone actually still reading or writing here that hasn’t come to terms with reality, finally will
If a change isn’t made after this season (and it probably won’t), Penn will continue to slide further away from NCAA relevancy and deeper into the abyss of Ivy dwarfdom.
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pennsive
Junior
Posts: 200
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-20-24 09:03 PM - Post#363674
In response to pennsive
Sorry for the typo: chastened in the first line was typed as hastened.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21212
Reg: 12-02-04
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02-20-24 09:28 PM - Post#363675
In response to pennsive
If only we could hasten the chastening of the MBB program within the hallowed halls of the Athletic Department.
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UPIA1968
PhD Student
Posts: 1121
Loc: Cornwall, PA
Reg: 11-20-06
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02-20-24 10:59 PM - Post#363678
In response to penn nation
Why are we kidding ourselves? It took eight years of futility and Ivy wins of 6-5-4 to dump Allen. This program has an Ivy championship and has gone 7-9-9-3 in the last four years including three Ivy Madness appearances. No way Steve gets fired.
Next year, however could be worse than this year. - should be actually. Maybe that would do it. Even money says three more years of this mess.
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Penn90
Masters Student
Posts: 574
Reg: 11-22-04
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02-20-24 11:29 PM - Post#363679
In response to UPIA1968
Any chance Steve voluntarily steps down? If they go 3-11 or worse I wonder if he just throws in the towel and makes things easy for the AD.
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1LotteryPick1969
Postdoc
Posts: 2275
Age: 73
Loc: Sandy, Utah
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-21-24 12:20 AM - Post#363681
In response to Penn90
Jack Scott up and left for Denver (and to a pay raise) after his lack of success.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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02-21-24 08:00 AM - Post#363688
In response to 1LotteryPick1969
I think it's hard to put Donahue in the Miller/Allen tier, if for the simple reason that his team still plays hard for him. The record is terrible for sure, but I suppose you could look at it as the team losing its 3 best players (and 4 if you count Monroe) from last year in that the team didn't have Slajchert for most of the Ivy season, and a recovering one when he did appear. Losing Dingle and Martz is certainly not anything positive for Donahue, but he lost Dingle in the age of the transfer portal. Miller and Allen couldn't hold a team together even in the day and age of redshirting. Donahue could descend to that level, but I can still imagine reversion to the middle of the pack. With the other guys, it was hard to even see that possibility.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32836
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-21-24 08:04 AM - Post#363689
In response to Penndemonium
Those guys didn't have the ILT. And their worst year was 5 Ivy wins--they always WERE in the middle of the pack in the Ivies. Remember, were it not for the ILT, Steve's best year (with Jerome's seniors) would have been a neutral site playoff game against one of Harvard's best teams. So if the comparison is only within the Ivies, Steve is comparable to Miller and Allen--it's just that the ILT has made it look better.
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SecS3
Junior
Posts: 246
Age: 75
Reg: 03-17-16
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02-21-24 11:12 AM - Post#363702
In response to 1LotteryPick1969
My money says Scott didn't just up and leave. I'd bet he was told find another job or we're going to have to let you go.
To Penn fans, if we could survive that, you can survive this.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21212
Reg: 12-02-04
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02-21-24 11:21 AM - Post#363703
In response to SecS3
Scott was only there for 4 years.
Even with COVID, we've given Donahue far more rope than what Scott had.
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LocalTiger
Masters Student
Posts: 434
Age: 58
Reg: 11-15-17
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02-21-24 12:35 PM - Post#363706
In response to penn nation
Scott had two issues:
1) he was not winning
2)he was yelling at kids too much
Donahue does not have the second,
which happily matters in the Ivies.
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ToothlessTiger
Senior
Posts: 336
Age: 76
Reg: 03-28-15
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02-21-24 01:27 PM - Post#363707
In response to LocalTiger
I know a player from the Scott years who is still close to the program. He says Scott totally lost the team to the point that a revolt was almost certain to happen. Thankfully Joe Scott encouraged his son, Jack, to pursue his basketball career at Princeton. He is a nice contributor at this point.
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SecS3
Junior
Posts: 246
Age: 75
Reg: 03-17-16
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02-21-24 01:50 PM - Post#363708
In response to penn nation
I believe Scott was only there for three years but the depths the program sunk to were lower than what Donahue has done for you. However, I understand your frustration as at present you seem to be mired in quicksand, the kind that takes three times longer than normal before you finally succumb.
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SecS3
Junior
Posts: 246
Age: 75
Reg: 03-17-16
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02-21-24 01:57 PM - Post#363710
In response to LocalTiger
Not only not winning but how he was losing. I also think it was a bit deeper than just yelling at the kids. Pete yelled at his players, but they still fought hard for him. Most of the team looked as though they wanted to jump ship during Scott's tenure. Fortunately, that blackeye didn't prevent Jack from becoming a Tiger and fitting in.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21212
Reg: 12-02-04
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02-21-24 02:26 PM - Post#363711
In response to ToothlessTiger
You can make a case that Donahue had already lost the team based on Dingle's departure followed by Martz's. As well as not really being able to nail down recruits.
Yes, the remaining players play hard, but if the key guys choose not to stay to play for you (or come to play for you in the first place), that is not a good look.
Scott just has not been a good coach, period. At least, not so far in the college ranks. Donahue had a decent track record as a Penn assistant during the glory days followed by his work at Cornell. The BC stint in retrospect should have been a warning sign of things to come.
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Quakers03
Professor
Posts: 12533
Reg: 12-07-04
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02-21-24 03:23 PM - Post#363713
In response to penn nation
Penn has an assistant coach who does a whole lot of yelling at the kids…
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1LotteryPick1969
Postdoc
Posts: 2275
Age: 73
Loc: Sandy, Utah
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-21-24 03:35 PM - Post#363714
In response to penn nation
Scott just has not been a good coach, period. At least, not so far in the college ranks.
From his bio at Air Force:
Scott first came to the Academy in 2001, taking over a program that had not had a winning season in 22 years and led it to new levels of success. In just four seasons he led the Falcons to their only Mountain West regular season title, first NCAA tournament appearance in 42 years, a top 25 national ranking and a then-school-record 22 wins. He was named MW coach of the year, National Association of Basketball Coaches (NABC) coach of the year and finished fourth in the balloting for Associated Press national coach of the year in 2004. Scott compiled a 22-4 (.846) record at home over his final two seasons, including a 3-0 mark in 2003-04.
Italics are mine.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32836
Reg: 11-21-04
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Pitino and Penn
02-21-24 03:38 PM - Post#363715
In response to 1LotteryPick1969
But since that time.....
2 good seasons in 16.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21212
Reg: 12-02-04
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02-21-24 03:39 PM - Post#363716
In response to 1LotteryPick1969
His first three seasons he went a cumulative 9-33 in conference and 39-55 overall. His 4th year there in his first Air Force stint was his one and only success story there.
In his second Air Force stint, over the past 4 years he has gone 13-54 in conference and 38-72 overall.
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gokinsmen
Postdoc
Posts: 3671
Reg: 02-06-10
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Pitino and Penn
02-21-24 04:12 PM - Post#363718
In response to penn nation
It's shocking how bad Joe Scott was. No current Ivy HC deserves to be compared to him.
JT3 handed him a 20-8 (13-1) league champion that returned 4 starters and received votes in the 2004-5 Preseason Top 25 polls. Scott proceeded to go 15-13 overall and 6-8 in Ivy play in a much, much weaker league than we have now.
The next season, Scott TWICE brought national humiliation to the program. First by losing to D-3 Carnegie Mellon and then by scoring a record-low 21 points in a loss to Monmouth. It took years to recover from the toxic situation he created.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21212
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: Pitino and Penn
02-21-24 04:23 PM - Post#363719
In response to gokinsmen
My (Incarnate) Word.
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SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4914
Reg: 02-04-06
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02-21-24 05:48 PM - Post#363720
In response to penn nation
Scott also outperformed at the University of Denver despite horrible, shifting conference affiliations. His replacements have cratered there.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21212
Reg: 12-02-04
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02-21-24 06:23 PM - Post#363721
In response to SRP
And anyone else who has coached at Air Force in the past 25 years has done a consistently better job than Scott.
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1LotteryPick1969
Postdoc
Posts: 2275
Age: 73
Loc: Sandy, Utah
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Pitino and Penn
02-21-24 09:18 PM - Post#363726
In response to gokinsmen
JT3 handed him a 20-8 (13-1) league champion that returned 4 starters and received votes in the 2004-5 Preseason Top 25 polls. Scott proceeded to go 15-13 overall and 6-8 in Ivy play in a much, much weaker league than we have now.
I'm NOT defending Scott; just pointing out he has succeeded at times.
But yes, that team he inherited was very good. I flew down to Durham to see them play Duke (having seen them in person several times the previous year), and was shocked to see how much the team had changed, becoming tentative, and constantly looking over to the bench. Not surprised at what followed.
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SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4914
Reg: 02-04-06
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02-22-24 06:17 AM - Post#363737
In response to 1LotteryPick1969
Nobody but Scott has ever succeeded at Air Force. This year’s team is among the youngest in D1, playing in a league full of seniors and fifth-year transfers.
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LocalTiger
Masters Student
Posts: 434
Age: 58
Reg: 11-15-17
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02-22-24 09:18 AM - Post#363742
In response to SRP
Chris mooney was 18-12 inn his one year at Air Force.
I guess Princeton guys can get it done anywhere.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6413
Reg: 11-22-04
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02-22-24 07:44 PM - Post#363786
In response to palestra38
I don’t think that’s true. Ivy tournament or not, 3rd or 4th place is better than 5th, 6th, or 7th. Miller and Allen’s team were in the bottom half of the league the majority of the time. Donahue is looking at his first time in the bottom half of the league this year.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32836
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-22-24 09:29 PM - Post#363790
In response to SomeGuy
In the pre-ILT era, it made no difference if you finished anywhere but 1st. But the tournament has made mediocre performance acceptable.
Not anymore.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3618
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-23-24 01:20 PM - Post#363804
In response to palestra38
In the pre-ILT era, it made no difference if you finished anywhere but 1st. But the tournament has made mediocre performance acceptable.
Not anymore.
Hello, welcome to the frustrated Penn basketball fan club. Some of us have been here for a while. I'd say glad to have you, but that's not quite the right sentiment.
I'd also like to tell you it gets better (you do get to save time from choosing not to watch, which is a plus), but it likely is going to get worse before it gets better (assuming we even care at that point).
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Cvonvorys
Postdoc
Posts: 4484
Loc: Princeton, New Jersey
Reg: 10-11-06
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02-23-24 01:52 PM - Post#363805
In response to Mike Porter
How does it get worse?
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8258
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-23-24 02:29 PM - Post#363809
In response to Cvonvorys
You become completely uncompetitive.
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weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
Posts: 2139
Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 12-14-09
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02-23-24 10:40 PM - Post#363847
In response to Streamers
Aren't we already there?
Two wins against Dartmouth don't count for much.
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