1st UP
Sophomore
Posts: 185
Loc: Denver
Reg: 11-11-09
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02-25-24 02:32 PM - Post#363982
2023-2024
As the season unfolded, so did everything else.
Two players who thought they were better than the rest abandoned ship to follow their own paths to “glory.”
But like the pretty adulteress who eventually found out how much she had hurt family and friends, these guys will too, if they haven’t already.
But in today’s culture of living for me, me, me .. . the concepts of loyalty and faithfullness are forgotten.
How sad.
Let’s not remember the two of them, but let’s
Remember how hard the guys who were left behind and the coaches have worked.
Hats off to this team and the concept of a team.
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LocalTiger
Masters Student
Posts: 434
Age: 58
Reg: 11-15-17
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02-25-24 02:39 PM - Post#363983
In response to 1st UP
If Martz is the second guy here,
I have to wonder whether people are
being too quick to write off his
explanation that he was retiring for
medical reasons. If he can't play
any more, he certainly deserves no
criticism.
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Quakers03
Professor
Posts: 12533
Reg: 12-07-04
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Re: 2023-2024
02-25-24 02:50 PM - Post#363984
In response to 1st UP
You knew it was coming, it was just a question of who it was going to be. I appreciate the chuckle. 4 more years!!
By the way, this isn’t a slight to the attitudes and will of the current players who represent the university well and are indeed a true team. But this isn’t youth basketball. Mediocrity is unacceptable and that’s exactly what this tenure has been. Not sure how much more needs to be seen. That’s before we even get into the x’s and o’s of offensive and defensive schemes.
As for the players being referenced, it takes some nerve to assume you know the details of the situations involved. Although your post history suggests interesting things. I love the secrecy in this program. Really cultivates lifelong fans.
Edited by Quakers03 on 02-25-24 02:55 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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1st UP
Sophomore
Posts: 185
Loc: Denver
Reg: 11-11-09
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Re: 2023-2024
02-26-24 12:51 PM - Post#364008
In response to LocalTiger
"If Martz is the second guy here,
I have to wonder whether people are
being too quick to write off his
explanation that he was retiring for
medical reasons. If he can't play
any more, he certainly deserves no
criticism."
Maybe, but there are some indicia that the team has been flushed.
-- No hint of what the medical problem is. I understand HIPPA restraints. But there was no indication of anything to forsee a serious medical problem deserving a whole year off. I wonder if the medical thing will all be"forgotten" if he plays for someone else next year. Hmmmm.
-- I've seen no indication that he is supportive of this team or its members. On many other occasions throughout various sports we have seen a disppointed medically side-lined player give moral support and comfort to the team. I've seen no indication to that effect here. Has he been at any of the home games. Practices? Even Jenanni Williams sang with the Penn team after a visit.
I would hope that this is not just a gaming of the system to get another year of post-Penn eligibility.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32835
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: 2023-2024
02-26-24 01:17 PM - Post#364009
In response to 1st UP
I too believe we will see him elsewhere next season. But that is not "gaming the system." It IS the system. He wants the Penn degree, and if he plays elsewhere next year, he wants a free year working for a grad degree and to play elsewhere.
We will see.
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CM
Masters Student
Posts: 423
Reg: 10-11-18
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Re: 2023-2024
02-26-24 01:30 PM - Post#364010
In response to 1st UP
Respectfully, stop talking out your butt.
Martz opted not to play because he hated the culture the coaches had created. And the guys he'd come into Penn with and with whom he'd lived were all graduating. So he just didn't want to play any more.
Assigning ulterior motives to this is pure BS and you should stop making assumptions about something you have no clue about.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3618
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-26-24 05:06 PM - Post#364013
In response to CM
Super weird take on Martz. The kid took a year away from his life beyond college to try to have all 4 years playing for Penn. He didn't have to do that.
He was rewarded by having a coaching staff that performed poorly at their job of recruiting enough talent and depth on the team to join him.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8258
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-26-24 06:59 PM - Post#364015
In response to Mike Porter
Seems to me, without any specific knowledge of his motives, plans, or health - that the opportunity to play another year and earn a free grad degree would be attractive for Mike if the right one is available. Am I missing something?
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SteveChop
PhD Student
Posts: 1155
Reg: 07-28-07
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02-26-24 09:22 PM - Post#364019
In response to Streamers
That would be MAX Martz.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8258
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-26-24 10:36 PM - Post#364025
In response to SteveChop
Yes it would. Too late to fix it.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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2023-2024
02-26-24 10:41 PM - Post#364026
In response to Streamers
Honestly, I agree that we should stop speculating, unless someone has direct knowledge...
I valued nychoops feedback b/c he had some direct insight to form his opinions. I'm not seeing any insights in any of the comments about Martz so far.
Dingle leaving was certainly was a big loss, but I completely understood why he would make his choice. Right now, I'm much more concerned with our level of recruiting (which is below where I think we should be) than the attrition (which doesn't seem definitively out of the ordinary in the transfer portal and NIL era).
Seems to me, without any specific knowledge of his motives, plans, or health - that the opportunity to play another year and earn a free grad degree would be attractive for Mike if the right one is available. Am I missing something?
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3618
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-27-24 03:08 AM - Post#364033
In response to Streamers
Seems to me, without any specific knowledge of his motives, plans, or health - that the opportunity to play another year and earn a free grad degree would be attractive for Mike if the right one is available. Am I missing something?
Not sure if this was for me, or just because I was last comment before yours, but I agree with you. I think it is a weird take from original poster to call out Max. Injury or otherwise, I don't begrudge his decision not to play with how the cards were dealt.
Even if he didn't want to play somewhere else next year, playing D1 hoops is a massive time commitment, even harder with injury and especially if your buddies graduated/transferred.
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yoyo
Senior
Posts: 365
Reg: 03-25-09
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Re: 2023-2024
02-27-24 11:46 AM - Post#364042
In response to CM
Respectfully, stop talking out your butt.
Martz opted not to play because he hated the culture the coaches had created. And the guys he'd come into Penn with and with whom he'd lived were all graduating. So he just didn't want to play any more.
Assigning ulterior motives to this is pure BS and you should stop making assumptions about something you have no clue about.
speaking of talking out your butt. How do you know he left because of the culture? Are you saying the medical reason was pure BS?
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32835
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: 2023-2024
02-27-24 12:22 PM - Post#364045
In response to yoyo
I know nothing about the culture issue. BUT, if you look back at the announcement of taking a "medical retirement" (a term I never heard before for a college player), he repeatedly said what a difficult decision it had been. Well, if there is a medical issue requiring "retirement", it's not a difficult decision, although it may be an unpleasant one to accept. He made it sound like it was a voluntary decision to take the year off. We will see pretty soon if he is in the portal, however.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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Re: 2023-2024
02-27-24 04:21 PM - Post#364052
In response to palestra38
Even if true, I'm happy for Martz to make that choice. I also don't blame the coach for this, although it is worth chalking up as one data point to consider in a much broader context.
If anyone knows directly about Martz, then I might adjust my POV. Nothing I've seen here so far is having that impact.
I know nothing about the culture issue. BUT, if you look back at the announcement of taking a "medical retirement" (a term I never heard before for a college player), he repeatedly said what a difficult decision it had been. Well, if there is a medical issue requiring "retirement", it's not a difficult decision, although it may be an unpleasant one to accept. He made it sound like it was a voluntary decision to take the year off. We will see pretty soon if he is in the portal, however.
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AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts: 4361
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-28-24 10:14 AM - Post#364073
In response to Penndemonium
Passionate fans often revert to hyperbole and speculation. It’s natural.
Personally when it comes to Penn and Ivy athletes in general, I’ve found over time that it helps to take a deep breath and resist the temptation to post anything negative about the young athletes. This doesn’t mean that I don’t think that the coaches are not fair game or that critiques of game strategy or even player performance is in anyway something we should be thinking twice about. But - when it comes to character, why not give them the benefit of doubt, especially when the public record wouldn’t seem to contradict speculative opinion.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8258
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-28-24 10:39 AM - Post#364075
In response to AsiaSunset
Agreed.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3618
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-29-24 03:09 AM - Post#364139
In response to Streamers
100% agree.
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1st UP
Sophomore
Posts: 185
Loc: Denver
Reg: 11-11-09
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02-29-24 09:08 AM - Post#364149
In response to AsiaSunset
A very graceful way to end a wayward thread.
Thank you.
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13otto
Masters Student
Posts: 779
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Reg: 11-22-04
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02-29-24 12:47 PM - Post#364157
In response to AsiaSunset
This doesn’t mean that I don’t think that the coaches are not fair game or that critiques of game strategy or even player performance is in anyway something we should be thinking twice about.
Not sure I can agree 100% with this statement as it contains too many negatives for my brain to comprehend.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32835
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-29-24 01:08 PM - Post#364158
In response to 13otto
AsiaSunset Said:
This doesn’t mean that I don’t think that the coaches are not fair game or that critiques of game strategy or even player performance is in anyway something we should be thinking twice about.
While we all knew what he meant, there indeed are 2 necessary changes to get the meaning right on paper. Let me attempt to re-write it:
AsiaSunset Said:
This doesn’t mean that I don’t think that the coaches are fair game or that critiques of game strategy or even player performance is in any way something we shouldn't be thinking twice about.
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Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts: 3778
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
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02-29-24 03:07 PM - Post#364159
In response to palestra38
Or, even more simply:
- The job performance of the coaches is fair game.
- It's OK to criticize game strategy and specific aspects of on-court player performance.
In other words, don't get personal, and don't make assumptions about anybody's internal motivations.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32835
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-29-24 03:23 PM - Post#364160
In response to Silver Maple
You're the Hemingway of this Board.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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02-29-24 07:04 PM - Post#364166
In response to Silver Maple
Or, even more simply:
- The job performance of the coaches is fair game.
- It's OK to criticize game strategy and specific aspects of on-court player performance.
In other words, don't get personal, and don't make assumptions about anybody's internal motivations.
Hmm... maybe we should put this on the header of the Basketball-U website.
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