Columbia 37P6
Postdoc
Posts: 2180
Reg: 02-14-06
|
03-02-24 10:58 PM - Post#364345
The Penn Basketball Team defeated the Columbia Lions 84-72 at the Palestra this evening. Penn revenged a loss to Columbia earlier in the season. Columbia which is now 4-9 in the Ivy League still has one more Ivy Game remaining which is against Cornell next weekend. Columbia is still in sixth place in the Ivy League followed by Penn and Dartmouth. Cornell, Princeton, Yale and Brown are the four teams that are in the Ivy League Tournament which will be held at Columbia's Levien Gym in mid-March. Harvard is in fifth place followed by Columbia in sixth, Penn in seventh with Dartmouth eighth and last.
|
Chet Forte
Postdoc
Posts: 2974
Reg: 03-02-08
|
 03-03-24 07:11 AM - Post#364362
In response to Columbia 37P6
A fourth place finish would have given Engles another 5 year extension; now he’ll probably only get a 4 year extension. As my Latin teacher at Hackensack High would have said, O tempora, O mores!
|
palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32835
Reg: 11-21-04
|
03-03-24 10:10 AM - Post#364373
In response to Chet Forte
As I said before this year, he was entitled to get a year to see where the team is heading. I think it would be a major mistake in letting him go with the quality of Columbia's young players. They were up against a very good league overall, and played competitive ball through their entire schedule.
|
Chet Forte
Postdoc
Posts: 2974
Reg: 03-02-08
|
03-03-24 11:02 AM - Post#364378
In response to palestra38
Two of our best players and 2/5ths of our starting 5 are seniors. Our one decent front court player, although undersized, and our starting SG/SF are both graduating.
|
palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32835
Reg: 11-21-04
|
03-03-24 12:25 PM - Post#364390
In response to Chet Forte
Top 2 scorers return, including the best player. McLean and Odunowo are replaceable by guys already on the team and from what I have read, Engles has recruited well for next year. CU took a step up this year and is likely to do the same next year, where Brown loses 3 seniors and Cornell 4 that get significant time. Obviously, the curve has to continue upwards, but you (and many others here) saw no hope coming into this year--you have to have some hope as of now.
|
cc66
Postdoc
Posts: 2204
Reg: 10-09-09
|
03-03-24 04:57 PM - Post#364420
In response to palestra38
P38 has it exactly right.
We jumped nearly 120 slots in KenPom (from 341 in 2023 to 223 in 2024). No one intends any disrespect to either McClean or Odunowo, but it's worthwhile remembering that they each contributed just 8 ppg-a contribution that could easily be replaced by either a healthy Nweke upfront, an improved Arop, or any one of the five highly touted prospects (Mason Ritter, 6'8" center; Giani Cobb, 6' pg; Josiah Cunningham, 6'2" guard; Gerard Cobb, 6'4" guard; Nigel Clarkson, 6'8" forward). These prospects were all recruited to Columbia on the assumption that Engles would be coaching them. They might decommit pretty quickly if that assumption were proven wrong.
Looking ahead, it's clear that our front line is the real problem. If Nweke can't contribute, and Ritter tracks the usual learning curve of a first year center, we are reliant on Tavroff who is big but not particularly agile, and Bedri, who is agile, but can't handle the ball. If our front line was as good as our guards, we'd be fighting for third or fourth place. If, next year, they are not, it establishes a firm ceiling on how much we can rise.
|
Columbia 37P6
Postdoc
Posts: 2180
Reg: 02-14-06
|
03-03-24 06:00 PM - Post#364424
In response to cc66
The truth is that this season was over before it began. For the umpteenth time, Pilling and Engles tricked us into thinking that we would be competitive in the Ivy League when they knew for a fact that we lacked the necessary skill and size in the front court to compete with any of our opponents in the Ivy League other than Dartmouth. How in Santa's name can a Head Coach in any Ivy League School recruit only two frontcourt players (Nweke and Arop) when your obvious need is for frontcourt assistance. As has happened almost every year of Engles horrific tenure, one or more key veterans or recruits suffers a season ending injury, transfers to another school or leaves the program. This year was no exception. Nweke suffered a season ending injury leaving only other frontcourt recruit (Arop).However, neither Pilling, Engles nor anyone else apparently bothered to check up on Arop's credentials because he barely saw any playing time. Why was that? Well we have to guess because Engles and Pilling have no regard for the Columbia Fan Base. So the few fans that are still remaining in the proram say that it has to be that Arpo weighed only 185 pounds. Do we know that for certain? No. But if true, how did Engles miss the obvious when he recruited Arop. Engles would only have the weight issue as an excuse if Arop weighed much more than 185 pounds when he was recruited. If he did, then I'm wrong and pologize. Otherwise Engles should have recruited a bigger stronger guy and the AD ought to have recognized the issue when he reviewed Engles list of incoming recruits. Finally, thanks to the Penn guys for recommending that Columbia retain Engles. Very helpful of them. Seriously, how about swapping Steve Donohue for Engles. Donohue is a terrific coach. Penn will be in the mix for the Ivy League Championship next season.
|
cc66
Postdoc
Posts: 2204
Reg: 10-09-09
|
Penn Tops Columbia Men 84-72
03-03-24 07:33 PM - Post#364429
In response to Columbia 37P6
Huh?
I wasn't aware that either Piling or Engles "tricked" us about the expectations for this season. If the hopes were too high among Columbia's most passionate fans, we all--the participants on this website--were the ones who held them.
As far as Arop Arop is concerned, Harvard, Howard, Rice, and Vanderbilt also recruited him. Like Columbia, they presumably did so despite his 6'11" 185 lbs physique, with the full knowledge that he was a talented, but longer term, project. Blair Thompson added 10 lbs in the weight room between his first and second seasons. If Arop can do the same, then we can all chalk up this season's problems at power forward to Nweke's injury.
Edited by cc66 on 03-03-24 07:34 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
|
sr
Freshman
Posts: 36
Age: 69
Reg: 03-26-11
|
03-03-24 11:03 PM - Post#364436
In response to cc66
What low expectations we have for Columbia basketball. Do you think there is another Ivy League school that would hang unto Engles this long?
|
Chet Forte
Postdoc
Posts: 2974
Reg: 03-02-08
|
 03-04-24 10:02 AM - Post#364453
In response to sr
All 7 of the other Ivies pay homage to Pilling day in and day out for giving them either a sure out a likely win. So Mark Fabish gets one year, goes 3 and 7 along with a few heartbreaking losses, and he is out on his ear. Yet Engels stands, arms akimbo on the sideline, while he is being outcoached by whoever might be the opponent, and Schiller sits at his courtside perch/throne apparently content to bask in the glory of the eponymous court and oblivious to see the train wreck which he has played a part in perpetuating. So I had thought at the beginning of the year that our very good guards might carry us along with superhuman efforts by joist, but by the second time around every coach in the league except fro Dartmouth had figured us out. And who thinks that Dartmouth will sit pat with its current HC?
|
Chet Forte
Postdoc
Posts: 2974
Reg: 03-02-08
|
03-04-24 10:02 AM - Post#364454
In response to Chet Forte
Meant superhuman efforts by Josh
|
Columbia 37P6
Postdoc
Posts: 2180
Reg: 02-14-06
|
03-04-24 12:11 PM - Post#364478
In response to Chet Forte
Chet, I totally agree with everything you said. I feel so bad for Josh O and the other players on the Columbia Basketball Team. Having followed Columbia Men's Basketball for many years it amazes me that our Basketball alums have allowed this debacle to happen. Jon Schiller is a great lawyer who played for the great Coach Jack Rohan on the greatest men's basketball team in Columbia History. Mr. Schiller certainly knows what needs to be done. I will be shocked if it doesn't happen before the Ivy League Tournament begins.
|
cc66
Postdoc
Posts: 2204
Reg: 10-09-09
|
03-04-24 01:24 PM - Post#364482
In response to Columbia 37P6
I would be surprised if it happened. The men's basketball team is on the way up--perhaps not as rapidly as we'd like, but still rising. We looked much more hopeless several years ago. If they didn't do it then, I can't see them doing it now, especially with a highly touted cohort of recruits coming in.
|
PeteD
Masters Student
Posts: 557
Loc: California
Reg: 03-13-07
|
03-04-24 06:02 PM - Post#364497
In response to cc66
Some of us, myself included, had low expectations this season. I anticipated 4-6 Ivy wins. The Lions were competitive in EVERY game this season, home or away. Not bad for a team coming off a 2-12 season. If you expected 8+ wins this season, maybe you overestimated Columbia, and underestimated the other teams.
|
palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32835
Reg: 11-21-04
|
03-04-24 06:08 PM - Post#364498
In response to PeteD
They wanted him fired last year. So they are looking for him to at least make the ILT. But they had a shot to do it, which is something that the prior year was inconceivable. And they'll definitely have a shot next year. You have to look at the arc. And that's swinging northbound. Especially at Columbia, where the standard of excellence over the last 40 years is a 3rd rate tournament spot after which the coach ran off, knowing he had nothing in the pipeline here, you don't want to fire a coach who seems to have been developing a pipeline to talent.
|
cc66
Postdoc
Posts: 2204
Reg: 10-09-09
|
Penn Tops Columbia Men 84-72
03-04-24 06:15 PM - Post#364499
In response to palestra38
Perhaps. Following KenPom, I originally thought we'd win 5 or 6. Then when we won six in a row OOC and three in a row in the IL, my expectations rose, only to come crashing down as we lose what appears will be the final six games.
I do think we will win 8 or 9 next year.
Edited by cc66 on 03-04-24 06:16 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
|
Columbia 37P6
Postdoc
Posts: 2180
Reg: 02-14-06
|
03-05-24 11:18 AM - Post#364548
In response to cc66
palestra38, with all due respect, your pro-keep Engles comment is based upon the rather absurd statement that the "...coach ran off knowing he had nothing in the pipeline here..." I have never heard that one before. My understanding is that Coach Smith went back to the West Coast for personal reasons and that he left his successor, Engles a huge amount of talent including Petrasek, Meisner, Tape and incoming freshman, Mike Smith, amongst others. I also know for a fact that had worked very hard during his tenure at Columbia to cultivate relationships with top high school coaches who highly respected him. It is ridiculous for keep trying to justify Columbia retaining Engles by making comparisons with his predecessor who built a winning program at Columbia and is now considered to be one of the top college basketball coaches in the United States.
|
palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32835
Reg: 11-21-04
|
03-05-24 11:48 AM - Post#364549
In response to Columbia 37P6
I am not excusing Engles' poor performance other than the effects of the pandemic (although I stand by my comments on what Smith left for him--Smith had missed on 2 classes in a row and Mullins transferred to Cal, so only 2 players with any significant time passed to Engles). But he is definitely on an arc of improved recruiting and much better team play, which I wish I could say for Penn.
|
Columbia 37P6
Postdoc
Posts: 2180
Reg: 02-14-06
|
03-05-24 12:19 PM - Post#364553
In response to palestra38
So if you back to justifying Engles' retention for still another year without unreasonably comparing him to successor, then the many problems you are facing include explaining his horrific won-loss record as Columbia's coach, inability to recruit and retain players, poor game management and many other issues. I do like your term "arc of improved recruiting," because it shows that you do recognize that at least his recruiting at Columbia has been awful.
|
Chet Forte
Postdoc
Posts: 2974
Reg: 03-02-08
|
03-05-24 12:50 PM - Post#364556
In response to Columbia 37P6
Mullins was a grad transfer with no more Ivy eligibility. He did not bail out but had no choice other than to take his redshirt year elsewhere. Unless Engles resigns, I would not expect him to be fired. He can say that the team is actually competitive, he had bad breaks with injuries in Nweke and Murphy, and he has a top tier by IL standards incoming class.
|
