Quakers03
Professor
Posts: 12533
Reg: 12-07-04
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03-09-24 07:54 PM - Post#364846
The game that used to matter more than anything has reached the half without a single post. Says it all. Princeton on pace for 100. And nothing will change.
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Penn7277
PhD Student
Posts: 1365
Loc: Lancaster, PA
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-09-24 08:21 PM - Post#364859
In response to Quakers03
I hate to state the obvious, but Spinoso needs to spend the summer practicing foul shots.
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Quakers03
Professor
Posts: 12533
Reg: 12-07-04
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03-09-24 08:22 PM - Post#364863
In response to Quakers03
What this coach did to Eddie Holland this year is grounds for firing alone. Kid wants the ball. Scores at a huge clip. And there’s no way his d is any worse than this other slop.
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besnoah
Masters Student
Posts: 803
Reg: 12-14-05
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03-09-24 08:29 PM - Post#364866
In response to Quakers03
I’m honestly not sure what’s left to say. Some of us have spent the past several years talking about what a lousy job this team has done adding talent.
They have one Ivy title in the past 15 years. They haven’t even managed a second place regular season finish in the last 5 seasons. Either the department cares somewhat about the program not sinking lower (they had a win over Villanova this year, things can get much worse) or we’re just Columbia with nice facilities.
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CM
Masters Student
Posts: 423
Reg: 10-11-18
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Re: We Have Reached a New Low
03-09-24 08:31 PM - Post#364868
In response to Quakers03
It’s like modern basketball versus old basketball. The contrast is stark. And depressing.
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TigerFan
PhD Student
Posts: 1890
Reg: 11-21-04
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We Have Reached a New Low
03-09-24 08:50 PM - Post#364884
In response to CM
CHEESETEAKS!!!
Edited by TigerFan on 03-09-24 08:50 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Quakers03
Professor
Posts: 12533
Reg: 12-07-04
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Re: We Have Reached a New Low
03-09-24 08:53 PM - Post#364885
In response to TigerFan
CHEESTEAKS!!!
The troll can’t even spell it right.
Hopefully this is the best thing that could have happened. Congrats, Steve. I’m sure the defense of Dingle and Martz would’ve made a huge difference.
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besnoah
Masters Student
Posts: 803
Reg: 12-14-05
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03-09-24 08:53 PM - Post#364886
In response to TigerFan
It is heartening to see that our rivals still need us in advance of their inevitable moral victory (First Round loss).
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Quakers03
Professor
Posts: 12533
Reg: 12-07-04
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03-09-24 08:54 PM - Post#364889
In response to besnoah
They have one Ivy title in the past 15 years. They haven’t even managed a second place regular season finish in the last 5 seasons. Either the department cares somewhat about the program not sinking lower (they had a win over Villanova this year, things can get much worse) or we’re just Columbia with nice facilities.
Not to quibble but it’s actually 0 for the last 16 in Ivy Titles. And they just don’t care.
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besnoah
Masters Student
Posts: 803
Reg: 12-14-05
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03-09-24 08:56 PM - Post#364890
In response to Quakers03
They split the Ivy Title in 2018 and since they won the Tournament, I give it to them.
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Quakers03
Professor
Posts: 12533
Reg: 12-07-04
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03-09-24 09:01 PM - Post#364891
In response to besnoah
They split the Ivy Title in 2018 and since they won the Tournament, I give it to them.
Fair.
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TigerFan
PhD Student
Posts: 1890
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-09-24 09:03 PM - Post#364892
In response to besnoah
Drink a highball on me.
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SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4911
Reg: 02-04-06
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03-09-24 09:09 PM - Post#364894
In response to TigerFan
Now I understand all the “free Holland” comments. Dude can do some things.
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Quakers03
Professor
Posts: 12533
Reg: 12-07-04
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03-09-24 09:14 PM - Post#364895
In response to SRP
No one has come up with an answer. It makes absolutely no sense. Looks at his most recent game logs. Hasn’t played since mid-February. It’s criminal.
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CM
Masters Student
Posts: 423
Reg: 10-11-18
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03-09-24 09:29 PM - Post#364898
In response to Quakers03
And it’s way way worse than just what you lose by not playing good players. Everyone on the team knows who should be playing. So when those guys don’t get clock, and the lineups are always changing for no logical reason, it really deteriorates trust among players that coaches know what they’re doing.
This game was a travesty - 105 pts on your head in the Palestra. Unreal.
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gokinsmen
Postdoc
Posts: 3669
Reg: 02-06-10
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We Have Reached a New Low
03-09-24 09:32 PM - Post#364899
In response to besnoah
It is heartening to see that our rivals still need us in advance of their inevitable moral victory (First Round loss).
Happy to see you come out of your year-long coma! May I suggest you catch up on Ivy hoops by watching Princeton's Sweet 16 run from last year? Thrilling stuff.
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besnoah
Masters Student
Posts: 803
Reg: 12-14-05
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03-09-24 10:02 PM - Post#364904
In response to gokinsmen
Thank you for your well wishes. It was hard on my family. I think it’s cute that you guys finally have something approaching the high watermark of all-time programs like George Mason, even if you’re not quite there.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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03-09-24 10:44 PM - Post#364907
In response to besnoah
Worst defensive college team I have seen in a long, long time. We don’t have a single player that can guard at a college level.
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Quakers03
Professor
Posts: 12533
Reg: 12-07-04
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03-09-24 10:48 PM - Post#364908
In response to PennFan10
Pierce, a sophomore, scored 32, and could have had 40 if he wanted. I don’t care how poor of athletes you have, there’s no way the coach couldn’t have come up with something better. Can’t wait to see George get 35 mins a game next year because he can “play d.”
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Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts: 2816
Reg: 11-23-04
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03-09-24 11:30 PM - Post#364914
In response to besnoah
Although I suspect that it will infuriate our Philly friends to read this, I feel some sympathy for them. We all experience the frustration of loss— some more than others— and it is never easy. I see Penn’s toughest problems as twofold. First, too many backseat coaches. What coach wants to read comments from angry fans, many of whom, like me, don’t know squat about coaching? Second, lousy location. Perhaps, Penn should relocate to some more desirable location like say, Pittsburgh where recruiting would not be nearly as challenging as convincing kids to spend four years in a city that boos Santa Claus.
Just sayin’.
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Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts: 2816
Reg: 11-23-04
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 Re: We Have Reached a New Low
03-09-24 11:57 PM - Post#364918
In response to Quakers03
True, he misspelled cheesesteak. Then, you raised him by misspelling his misspelling.
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nychoops
Junior
Posts: 243
Reg: 11-23-04
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03-10-24 12:22 AM - Post#364920
In response to Tiger69
Between the post blaming Jordan for bailing on his teammates and the one comparing Steve to Rick P... between the "he's a respected coach in the industry" ..he's a joke. An awful basketball coach and a worse recruiter. The team and program has a reputation, deny it or not as disorganized, without leadership and sinking amongst AAU and HS coaches. I would NEVER steer a kid i work with here ..and that's casting aside a 40 yr relationship. No personal vendetta at all... facts. FACTS.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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03-10-24 01:02 AM - Post#364923
In response to nychoops
Why did Bruce Pearl offer him the associate HC job at Auburn if he is such a bad coach? I could privately list 20 or more well respected college coaches that think Donahue is a good strategist and game coach. I can’t have a lot of respect for someone who tosses aside objective observations for his own opinion and calls them facts. Poor recruiter? Absolutely fair. Everything else stems from that.
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GoQuakersGo
Sophomore
Posts: 119
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-10-24 08:38 AM - Post#364930
In response to PennFan10
PennFan, even if we accept that what you say about his respect from other coaches around the nation is true, are you saying he should get to stay on as head coach? If we break down the responsibilities of a head coach, I would argue that he is objectively a failure at all aspects:
1) Recruiting - By your own admission, Steve has been terrible at this
2) Player development - This has been a glaring problem for his program. Guys who are good as freshmen stay good (though arguably don't get much better). Other key players do not emerge over time. On this roster, see Eddie Holland, Cam Thrower and literally any big man as examples. This is simply not the case at the top Ivy programs. See guys like John Poulakidas at Yale or Matt Allocco at Princeton as examples.
3) Game strategy - You say that other coaches respect Steve's game strategy, but, to me, the last memory I have of his game strategy are 2nd half collapses. That speaks to other teams' ability to adjust better then him during games.
4) Program management - Above all, the head coach is the CEO of the program. No coach is amazing at all the elements of the job listed above. That is why you build a diverse staff with complementary skills. Perhaps my biggest criticism of Steve is that he largely kept his staff in place for years and we have seen similar results year-in and year-out. He could have recognized his flaws in recruiting and switched out a top assistant for a proven recruiter. He could have recognized his flaws defensively and adjusted his staff/philosophy to fix that. But instead he has kept everything the same and expected different results. If he is unable/unwilling to make changes, he deserves to go.
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nychoops
Junior
Posts: 243
Reg: 11-23-04
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03-10-24 08:50 AM - Post#364933
In response to GoQuakersGo
please list the 20 coaches. And Pearl wanted him for administrative stuff like organizing practices...i have ZERO desire to get into factless debate... he might be a well respected man, i wouldn't question that. But i have not talked to a single coach, NOT ONE that thinks he's capable
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GoQuakersGo
Sophomore
Posts: 119
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-10-24 09:12 AM - Post#364936
In response to nychoops
Also, who gives a crap if Steve is respected or not. At this point, don't the results speak for themselves?
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8257
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-10-24 10:44 AM - Post#364944
In response to GoQuakersGo
I think the administration cares enough about this, and other related qualities to save his job, at least until his contract is up, whenever that is.
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Quakers03
Professor
Posts: 12533
Reg: 12-07-04
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03-10-24 11:01 AM - Post#364946
In response to Streamers
Your last line says all that we need to know about this program and the way in which they care about their fans. “Whenever that is.” How do we not even know?!
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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We Have Reached a New Low
03-10-24 02:39 PM - Post#364972
In response to GoQuakersGo
PennFan, even if we accept that what you say about his respect from other coaches around the nation is true, are you saying he should get to stay on as head coach? If we break down the responsibilities of a head coach, I would argue that he is objectively a failure at all aspects:
1) Recruiting - By your own admission, Steve has been terrible at this
2) Player development - This has been a glaring problem for his program. Guys who are good as freshmen stay good (though arguably don't get much better). Other key players do not emerge over time. On this roster, see Eddie Holland, Cam Thrower and literally any big man as examples. This is simply not the case at the top Ivy programs. See guys like John Poulakidas at Yale or Matt Allocco at Princeton as examples.
3) Game strategy - You say that other coaches respect Steve's game strategy, but, to me, the last memory I have of his game strategy are 2nd half collapses. That speaks to other teams' ability to adjust better then him during games.
4) Program management - Above all, the head coach is the CEO of the program. No coach is amazing at all the elements of the job listed above. That is why you build a diverse staff with complementary skills. Perhaps my biggest criticism of Steve is that he largely kept his staff in place for years and we have seen similar results year-in and year-out. He could have recognized his flaws in recruiting and switched out a top assistant for a proven recruiter. He could have recognized his flaws defensively and adjusted his staff/philosophy to fix that. But instead he has kept everything the same and expected different results. If he is unable/unwilling to make changes, he deserves to go.
I am not defending Donahue with my posts. I also think the results speak themselves. I think Penn is a great place to coach and they should be a lot better than they are 8 years in. I believe this staff has not done a good job recruiting. And finding recruits and gettting them interested is the primary responsibility of the assistant coaches. Nat Graham has historically been a good recruited. I believe he recruited AJ and most of the other kids that came from the New England Prep schools. Ira Bowman was a very determined recruiter and he was responsible for the defense. We haven't been the same since he left.
I think all of the problems we have stem from recruiting. To take an exaggerated example, every Ivy that plays a D3 school beats them soundly. Those schools have good coaches. There are many that end up at D1 or pro jobs. They get beat because the D1 teams they play have much better players, not necessarily because those coaches suck. Better players win games. Amaker, arguably the best recruiter in league, has fallen off in getting top recruits. Harvard's dominance has seen a correlating decline.
Again, I am not defending the results and I would have no problem if the AD decided to make a change. I can tell you Steve would get a high level job in a D1 program if he ever wanted it.
By the way, 2nd half collapses happen to everyone and, as a stand alone criteria, aren't indicators of coaching prowess. Princeton lost a 17 point 2nd half lead to Yale last year at home and lost the game in OT. As mentioned Pitino lost several double digit leads this season (and for the record and for those who can read that's not comparing Donahue to Pitino).
Edited by PennFan10 on 03-10-24 02:54 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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03-10-24 03:01 PM - Post#364974
In response to PennFan10
please list the 20 coaches. And Pearl wanted him for administrative stuff like organizing practices...i have ZERO desire to get into factless debate... he might be a well respected man, i wouldn't question that. But i have not talked to a single coach, NOT ONE that thinks he's capable
Dude, I am sure you have a lot of contacts and have been around forever. But your posts about Donahue just don't make sense to me. Forgive me if I don't list my contacts but since you have ZERO desire for debate that doesn't seem a worthwhile exercise.
My contention that Steve is highly regarded is not factless as I there are a number of coaches who are the on public record as affirming Donahue as a coach. Those are pretty easy to find and don't require anyone to list their private conversations. Declaring "He's a joke" is actually factless and by definition nothing more than opinion. Having not spoken to a single coach who thinks he's capable could be construed as facts (depending on how many people you know) and that was the reason for my posts as I have not heard that, in fact I have had the opposite experience (caveat: I don't speak with many HS and AAU coaches so can't offer anything there). But if HS and top AAU coaches don't like Donahue, that certainly would contribute to the poor recruiting.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6413
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-10-24 07:17 PM - Post#364990
In response to nychoops
I think you and I may have different definitions of the word “vendetta.”
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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03-10-24 08:45 PM - Post#364999
In response to SomeGuy
PennFan10, can you give us a better snapshot of these conversations? If it's in postgame media interviews, well those are pretty much fluff. Do you have private conversations with other head coaches in a context where they might offer honest and neutral opinions? I'm not challenging you on this - I'm just wondering what kind of feedback to take into account.
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yoyo
Senior
Posts: 365
Reg: 03-25-09
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03-11-24 02:10 PM - Post#365019
In response to nychoops
I am surprised that Dana would allow his son to play for such a joke of a coach and terrible recruiter.
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nychoops
Junior
Posts: 243
Reg: 11-23-04
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03-11-24 03:51 PM - Post#365031
In response to yoyo
Have you met Dana? Had you EVER heard of Jordan before he signed?
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besnoah
Masters Student
Posts: 803
Reg: 12-14-05
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Re: We Have Reached a New Low
03-16-24 01:39 PM - Post#365403
In response to gokinsmen
Good news! I was right about the first round loss!
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