gokinsmen
Postdoc
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Reg: 02-06-10
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03-16-24 02:50 PM - Post#365423
Catch-all thread for overall thoughts on the season and the future. If they get and accept an NIT invite (probably will), we can make new threads for that.
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What a bummer finish for the guys and for the program. I really thought they were primed for another amazing March. No one outside the Top 3 (UConn, Houston, Purdue) looks unbeatable on a neutral court... but it's all for naught.
That said, I don't think any of us thought they'd go 24-3 with a 48 NET during the regular season. Or that Xaivian Lee would turn into a POY caliber, NBA prospect as a soph. So many great games and moments - you have to fly this high to crash this hard.
Gonna miss Allocco and Martini so much. I expect both will enter the transfer portal for their 5th year, especially after this sour finish. They will beast on their new teams - Langborg is huge for Northwestern - and they deserve to taste March Madness again.
The silver linings to this unhappy ending:
- Pierce and Lee are two pro/NBA caliber stars who have two years left. I have no doubt Caden and Xaivian will learn from this just like Tosan and Ryan learned from the 2022 ILT upset and achieved greatness in 2023. Their best basketball is ahead of them, which is saying a lot.
- Dalen Davis solidified his star talent today. He is such a special clutch scorer and ballhandler. 21pts in a single half after playing badly in the 1st half. Nerves of steel.
- Blake Peters comes back. He became a more complete player this year and his %s will go back up with lower minutes next year (just like they did in Ivy play).
- Deven Austin comes back from injury. Our defense and depth were our Achilles heels and Deven is a HUGE help in both areas. Probably our starting SF.
- The coaching staff's player development is outstanding. If just ONE big man can step up and be solid (Huggins? Collins? A freshman?), then this team will be a top midmajor once again. Might lose a few non-conf games in November, but I can't wait for Pierce and Lee to reach another ILT - they won't let it slip away again.
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Tiger69
Postdoc
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Reg: 11-23-04
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03-16-24 11:11 PM - Post#365489
In response to gokinsmen
We have a lot to look forward to IF neither Caden nor Xavian receives a NIL offer he can’t refuse.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21204
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: 2023-2024 Season in Review
03-16-24 11:47 PM - Post#365493
In response to gokinsmen
No one outside the Top 3 (UConn, Houston, Purdue) looks unbeatable on a neutral court...
Two of these three teams lost today on neutral courts.
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gokinsmen
Postdoc
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Reg: 02-06-10
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2023-2024 Season in Review
03-17-24 12:31 AM - Post#365498
In response to penn nation
I mean, their #1 seeds are all punched. That's not quite the same thing.
As for NIL, I don't see any reason to worry about Lee or Pierce. There's zero evidence that they want to ditch a Princeton degree and the opportunity to be a big fish in a small pond. Quite the contrary, in fact.
Understandably, the NIL temptation is much greater for those who need the money for their families. The only way I see any Tiger leaving is if some NBA team makes Lee a first round draft promise in 2025.
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ToothlessTiger
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03-17-24 10:07 AM - Post#365512
In response to gokinsmen
Brown exposed the weakness of this team: an undersized front court. The Big men on the roster have not shown that there is a difference maker among them, but Richmond was a late developer. I hope Mitch can bring in a stud on the Kellman mode. Assuming mitch is still here. Plenty of scoring coming back. Pierce should pick up the emotional leadership role filled so beautifully by Allocco.
Tabitha Amanze can help fill Mitchell's sneakers. Carla reloads!
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Tiger81
Masters Student
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Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-17-24 10:25 AM - Post#365514
In response to gokinsmen
Zach Martini is going to be the hardest piece of the puzzle to replace next year.
In addition to providing strong positional defense in the post he was a 3P threat and point center who stretched defenses and he rarely got into foul trouble.
Princeton will definitely miss Allocco’s leadership, defensive tenacity and clutch scoring, but between Scott and Davis they have good options to offset those losses and Deven Austin will provide more backcourt depth off the bench.
If they start Scott and Davis, and move Pierce to the 5 with Scott backfilling Pierce, that will be an even more under-sized lineup than this year. Matching up against Yale and Brown next year it is hard to envision a small line-up having enough firepower, especially in the wake of yesterday’s beatdown.
When Pierce went out against Yale after banging his head, Coach Henderson put Scott on the floor ahead of Huggins and Collins never got extended minutes except in garbage time. They or one of the freshman would need to take a big leap to crack the starting lineup.
Of the incoming freshman, the two biggest gets are a guard (Stanton) and a SF (Abdullahi). CJ Happy would provide more presence in the paint at 6’8” 220 lbs. but was not as highly-recruited.
Best case would be a Richmond Arririguzoh-like emergence into the starting lineup for Huggins or better yet the beefier Collins. Arririguzoh hardly played as a first-year, got into the rotation and started a handful of games as a sophomore, and then became an All-Ivy player his last two years.
As for the potential defection of Pierce or Lee (or Wolf or Mack), I would prefer to stick my head in the sand for now rather than contemplate the demise of D-I Ivy athletics.
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1LotteryPick1969
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03-17-24 11:11 AM - Post#365516
In response to Tiger81
As for the potential defection of Pierce or Lee (or Wolf or Mack), I would prefer to stick my head in the sand for now rather than contemplate the demise of D-I Ivy athletics.
Very nice summary. Agree with every word.
Regarding an emerging big along the line of Richmond, I think we all saw his potential even though he played very little. I for one don't see that among the current candidates, but I would happily be proven wrong.
"james" from Yale mentions a collective being started for men's b-ball. Any rumbling of a similar initiative at Princeton?
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ToothlessTiger
Senior
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Age: 76
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03-17-24 01:02 PM - Post#365526
In response to 1LotteryPick1969
I am not aware of any but would certainly support such an initiative.
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jeromelh
Junior
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Reg: 03-30-17
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03-17-24 01:07 PM - Post#365527
In response to 1LotteryPick1969
I believe that at least one of Huggins, Sangster, Collin’s or Byriel will make a big jump. At the beginning of this season who would have thought that Martini would perform as well as he did. Next year the depth will be improved. Dalen Davis is going to be a monster. Next year we should be better.
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Tiger81
Masters Student
Posts: 412
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-17-24 01:29 PM - Post#365533
In response to jeromelh
I hope you are right about players taking a step up next year. Zach Martini played a big role last year and it was clear he was ready to start coming into the current season.
He was on the floor against Arizona last year in the final minutes and made a critical pass to Caden Pierce that led to FTs that iced that game. None of the potential bigs on the current roster saw the court in crunch time this year.
Huggins got the most minutes but rarely when the game was on the line. He is very active and athletic and may be best positioned to get into the starting lineup. IMO he will need to spend more time in the weight room first.
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umbrellaman
Masters Student
Posts: 476
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: 2023-2024 Season in Review
03-17-24 02:11 PM - Post#365545
In response to gokinsmen
Re: NIL - as Noah Savage noted, the Ivies have been insulated from that because the decision was already made that the player wanted the degree - “a forty year decision, not a four year one” - on the concession line with two Brown basketball alums (both just featured on the broadcast” - after discussing the game the older on asked the younger one - hey what are you up to now, answer “still at Goldman, gonna be fifteen years…”
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gokinsmen
Postdoc
Posts: 3669
Reg: 02-06-10
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2023-2024 Season in Review
03-17-24 02:25 PM - Post#365551
In response to umbrellaman
Xaivian quoted his mom in an interview: "Good person, good student, good athlete. In that order." He's not leaving for a quick payday at a high major.
He and Pierce have a perfect situation at Princeton. They're the stars. They get the most shots, stats and attention - their NBA/pro dreams are best served staying here. In fact, Tosan is showing the way. He wasn't even drafted and he still got a two-way NBA contract in less than a year. Xaivian has already made a couple of draft boards as a sophomore.
I totally support students who transfer because their family needs the NIL money - great move. But neither Pierce nor Lee are in that category.
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gokinsmen
Postdoc
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Reg: 02-06-10
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2023-2024 Season in Review
03-20-24 10:09 PM - Post#365985
In response to gokinsmen
Welp, the season is truly over - I suspected they'd lose a half-hearted game tonight, so I'm not surprised. Still a fantastic season for making Princeton hoops nationally relevant and setting up a two-year window of potential program-defining achievement.
Pierce and Lee were the 1st and 2nd best players in the Ivy this year - and two of the top sophs in the nation. But there's a reason the best March teams seem to be senior-led (including ours last year). Experience counts. This season will lay the foundation for next year with our stars getting more motivated and a little wiser (and in Lee's case, even better conditioned).
Bravo 2023-2024 Tigers - thank you for a thrilling season of great hoops. Serious fun to watch in addition to the 24-5 record. It wasn't the ending we predicted in February, but it was so much better than anything I expected at the start.
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1LotteryPick1969
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Re: 2023-2024 Season in Review
03-20-24 10:26 PM - Post#365990
In response to gokinsmen
It wasn't the ending we predicted in February, but it was so much better than anything I expected at the start.
Could not agree more.
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sparman
PhD Student
Posts: 1347
Reg: 12-08-04
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Re: 2023-2024 Season in Review
03-20-24 10:45 PM - Post#365993
In response to gokinsmen
Still a fantastic season for keeping Princeton hoops nationally relevant and setting up a two-year window of potential program-defining achievement.
FTFY
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TigerFan
PhD Student
Posts: 1890
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-20-24 10:56 PM - Post#365994
In response to 1LotteryPick1969
I heard before the game from a university staff person very close to the team that several starters had the stomach flu before Saturday's game--not just Xaivian. Really explains a lot. And the guys looked tired and pale tonight from where I was sitting. Hand it to Mitch for coaching through that, extending the bench and keeping the guys fired up.
And yet, they still almost pulled that game out. Three or four threes went in and out and UNLV got a couple of freaky bounces that turned a great defensive stand into an easy hoop. UNLV shot the lights out from three and we didn't. They are well-coached, pass the ball well, and have some really strong players.
I am incredibly proud of this team and excited for the future of Princeton basketball. With the success of our press and the 1-3-1 trap the last two games, I'd love to see more of that next year. Mitch should have a longer bench, which would make that style a better fit.
Go Tigers!
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umbrellaman
Masters Student
Posts: 476
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: 2023-2024 Season in Review
03-20-24 10:58 PM - Post#365995
In response to gokinsmen
When they last year their “bigs” were Tosan, Kellman, Martini and Pierce, and this year it was Martini and Pierce, they performed way over expectations. Starting off with Pierce, Lee, Austin, Davis, Scott and Peters is not bad, although a bit small.
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gokinsmen
Postdoc
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Reg: 02-06-10
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2023-2024 Season in Review
03-20-24 11:24 PM - Post#365997
In response to TigerFan
I heard before the game from a university staff person very close to the team that several starters had the stomach flu before Saturday's game--not just Xaivian.
That makes a lot of sense. Frankly, it would be weird for just one guy on the team to get sick from flu/covid/RSV.
I know our rivals are celebrating their unlikely upset of Princeton (which itself is a huge compliment), but this team is primed for a Butler-esque NCAA run in the next two years. Pierce + Lee, Peters, Austin, Davis and a tackling dummy at center will be a Top 50 team.
Again, it's worth noting that the Sweet 16 run happened after the upset ILT loss of 2022. And as a bonus, we already know that have 2 POY-caliber guys coming back.
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LocalTiger
Masters Student
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Age: 58
Reg: 11-15-17
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03-21-24 08:16 AM - Post#366007
In response to gokinsmen
It was a GREAT season, and we can hope the chemistry
remains next year.
We lose two important starters, but getting Austen
back should really help. We need more size, but
maybe the freshmen or bench can supply an answer
there.
Mitch has built a great culture. Let's hope he stays
and we get another run.
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ToothlessTiger
Senior
Posts: 336
Age: 76
Reg: 03-28-15
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03-21-24 03:29 PM - Post#366022
In response to LocalTiger
No one can blame Henderson if he takes big ,$$$ at this point in his career. What does such a move say to Pierce and Lee and the current recruits? I hate to think about it. If those kids came here, or are coming, because of Henderson why would they not capitalize on their ability? Just asking...
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LocalTiger
Masters Student
Posts: 434
Age: 58
Reg: 11-15-17
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03-21-24 03:41 PM - Post#366023
In response to ToothlessTiger
Not blaming anyone if that happens.
Just hoping it does not!
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gokinsmen
Postdoc
Posts: 3669
Reg: 02-06-10
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2023-2024 Season in Review
03-21-24 04:37 PM - Post#366025
In response to LocalTiger
Ironically, our disappointing finish probably ensured that it doesn't happen.
If they made it back to the NCAAs and Mitch had another win or two, I can only imagine the amazing offers he would have received. But now, it behooves him to stay another year or two. The best thing for his career is to leave on a high note.
I was scared he would leave after last year (timing was perfect), but I'm not really worried about this year. Brett MacConnell might leave, but if I were him, I'd position myself to take over for Mitch in a year or two (unless he knows MH wants to stay long-term).
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scoop85
Freshman
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Loc: Goshen, NY
Reg: 02-16-12
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03-21-24 05:46 PM - Post#366027
In response to gokinsmen
As per Verbal Commits Twitter, Matt Allocco is in the transfer portal.
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mmp629
Junior
Posts: 259
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: 2023-2024 Season in Review
03-21-24 09:24 PM - Post#366041
In response to gokinsmen
Bravo 2023-2024 Tigers - thank you for a thrilling season of great hoops. Serious fun to watch in addition to the 24-5 record. It wasn't the ending we predicted in February, but it was so much better than anything I expected at the start.
So well said! We had so much fun following the team this year - I'm so glad I got season tickets, which I haven't had in years.
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whitakk
Masters Student
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Age: 32
Reg: 11-11-14
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03-21-24 10:21 PM - Post#366046
In response to mmp629
The quotes here sound like Mitch isn't completely taking everyone's return for granted, which I guess is better than ignoring the possibility, but isn't helping my nerves for the next month or so. https://guardenstate.substack.com/p/princeton-fall...
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gokinsmen
Postdoc
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Reg: 02-06-10
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2023-2024 Season in Review
03-21-24 11:41 PM - Post#366049
In response to whitakk
This quote from MH hints at everyone coming back Redeem Team style. Seems like they want to take care of unfinished business:
"But they need to get away from the old man for a little bit. They gotta get away from my voice and go be students and enjoy the spring and the nice weather, and then we’ll get back together and talk about our goals for next season, which will be – we’ll have very heavy, lofty goals.”
Dingle and Perkins left early because Penn is in a Joe Scott Era-level funk right now. Meanwhile, Princeton made its first Sweet 16 in the 64-team era followed by a 24-3 Top 50 NET regular season. Our players have it real good right now.
Caden and Xaivian have dream situations at Princeton: big fish in small ponds that still get national attention. Better to be guaranteed stars with tons of shots than go to a high major team that may bench you or take the ball out of your hands.
As for NBA exposure, Lee already has tons of NBA scouts showing up to his games. And I'm sure many are taking notice of Caden too, though more as a fringe prospect like Tosan. And Tosan is already playing in the NBA! Proof of concept right there.
As for the financial motivation, it seems like both Caden and Xaivian come from families who don't need that big NIL payday. They're here for the Princeton degree + big-fish-small-pond exposure. And it's working out better than anyone could have expected.
Yes, it's a bummer to have missed out on a March Moment this year. But that happens to most Power 5 teams too. Or you can make it and lose in the first round like Kentucky just did.
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1LotteryPick1969
Postdoc
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03-22-24 09:52 AM - Post#366060
In response to whitakk
Thanks for posting that link. Very nice interview. Clever question to as Mitch if he wants to retire in Princeton.
I can't shake this sense of foreboding that this is the apex of our basketball program in the 21st century, and that it is downhill from here on.
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iogyhufi
Masters Student
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03-22-24 10:37 AM - Post#366064
In response to 1LotteryPick1969
I'm very optimistic about the future of Ivy League basketball, and I feel that way for a few reasons.
First, we are absolutely kidding ourselves if we think that NIL was the introduction of paying players in college basketball. People were getting strong-you-know-what offers well before that. And yet the Ivy League was able to get talented players. As we all know well, the value of an Ivy degree is compensation you can get here that you can't get many other places, and that hasn't changed.
Second, there are way way way more high school basketball players in the world than all the D1 coaches could ever see even if they spent their time doing nothing else. Lee and Evbuomwan didn't have any other D1 offers. Danny Wolf was mostly recruited by mid-majors. Makai Mason didn't have any high-major offers. The Ivies have a great history of finding guys whom nobody else saw.
Third, I think the League eventually decides to keep up with the Joneses and will allow NIL collectives. It might take one of the top teams losing a star (God forbid), but I do think it'll happen. I'm certain that there are enough committed alumni who'd be willing to help bankroll such a thing.
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TigerFan
PhD Student
Posts: 1890
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-22-24 11:13 AM - Post#366066
In response to iogyhufi
There is an aura around the Princeton basketball program right now that hasn't been here since the late 90s. The school and the community have a special connection with this team and Jadwin has been full and loud--frankly something that has been missing for a long time.
Recruiting has been strong for several seasons--imagine how well this year's team could have done with Deven Austin and a healthier Jackson Hicke--and it looks like we have several terrific recruits coming next year.
Xaivian and Caden are legitimate stars and they are complemented with a very compelling ensemble around them.
If everything holds, we should enjoy several more fantastic years. I will enthusiastically re-upping my season tickets!
I do remember how that late 90s team fell apart, however, when Billy C. jumped to Northwestern and Chris Young signed with MLB (and of course there was the bizarre Spencer Gloger experience that came right around then).
Mitch has build a culture with humanity and joy at its heart--a lot different than the tone of the Carril years. Let's hope it all holds together.
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1LotteryPick1969
Postdoc
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Loc: Sandy, Utah
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-22-24 11:48 AM - Post#366069
In response to TigerFan
I do remember how that late 90s team fell apart, however, when Billy C. jumped to Northwestern and Chris Young signed with MLB (and of course there was the bizarre Spencer Gloger experience that came right around then).
Mitch has build a culture with humanity and joy at its heart--a lot different than the tone of the Carril years. Let's hope it all holds together.
Thanks for the pep talk and also for the Spencer Gloger reference. I hope you are correct.
No thanks for peeling the scab off of the Chris Young history.
And I agree with your assessment of Mitch. Humanity and Joy. Indeed.
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