Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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03-22-24 01:57 PM - Post#366075
It's obvious things aren't right with our program at this moment. It's unclear what the impact to the Ivy League will be as classes roll over. Mid-majors will *probably* be at a disadvantage to big conference teams in the longer run.
Things are changing in NCAA basketball. Even Coach Calipari, who ruled the NCAAs for years, needs to rethink his approach. I despise Calipari, but can't deny that he is among coaching royalty.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/another-early-ex it-kent...
So... let's start a thread. What should Penn do about this? How should it shape a strategy to be competitive within the league? How should it find a way for the team and the league to be relevant? Or should Penn just let it wither?
So my ground rules are...
- This thread is not about whether Donahue should be fired. I'm fine that many people think that he should be, but the longer term issues of NIL and the transfer portal are bigger than him - just as it may be bigger than Calipari. Let's make this a strategy that considers what we would want to have happen, irrespective of who the individual leading the team is. Let's have separate threads about the coach.
- Let's ground this in realism. Pie in the sky won't help chart solutions. It would be easy to say start recruiting better, developing players better, and pouring money at this. Obviously we want a coach who can do that. But how do we deal with the systemic issues?
- At least on first thought, the main issues for this thread are how to overcome issues with the NIL, transfer portal, concentration of major conferences, financials of sports programs, and apathy of the Ivy League.
Maybe we can come up with something useful instead of just heaping criticism. Or maybe we come to the conclusion that there is no way to win here.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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Let's brainstorm a plan
03-22-24 02:07 PM - Post#366077
In response to Penndemonium
Here's a thought. What if Penn and the league agreed to allow a full ride scholarship for all players, but no NIL beyond that? It would help provide equal access to high quality education and give a lot of people access up front - instead of waiting for financial aid feedback. It would also help equalize the HYP tuition policies. I know many people think the financial aid disparities aren't a big deal, but I can't help think that it matters at least a bit. Every player qualified to be recruited to the team will know they have financial access, but no upside. The value, given tuition today, is still quite large. We might have easier access to a broader pool of players, get better recruits, and give more of them a reason to stay.
I don't think this will solve all of the problems, but it *should* raise the quality of the team, it helps thread the needle of recruiting and retaining good players, and still attracts players who care about their education. Also, it doesn't break the bank at all.
I don't think this brings the programs to an elite level, but it gives the league the possibility of staying solidly within the mid-level ranks. It may even boost it to upper-mid-major level. For Penn specifically, it also helps to remove the HYPr financial aid advantage, however big or small that actually is. A program at the upper-mid-major level should be self supporting from better fan bases, ticket sales, merch sales, and better NCAA money (from occasional at-large NCAA invitations).
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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Let's brainstorm a plan
03-22-24 02:11 PM - Post#366078
In response to Penndemonium
Or here's a revised thought. Instead of no NIL, maybe it is NIL that is split evenly among roster players. This way it isn't mercenary but allows athletes to benefit from NIL. NIL helps the team instead of just players individually. That may not attract the biggest stars, but could attract some pretty good ones - maybe enough to raise the program and attract more NIL for the team. This approach could allow the program and league to stay afloat with the rest of the NCAAs, even if NIL itself goes crazy. It won't attract many five star recruits, but it will make sure the league doesn't perennially get the bottom of the recruiting barrel.
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weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
Posts: 2139
Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 12-14-09
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Re: Let's brainstorm a plan
03-22-24 08:22 PM - Post#366170
In response to Penndemonium
Or here's a revised thought. Instead of no NIL, maybe it is NIL that is split evenly among roster players. This way it isn't mercenary but allows athletes to benefit from NIL. NIL helps the team instead of just players individually. That may not attract the biggest stars, but could attract some pretty good ones - maybe enough to raise the program and attract more NIL for the team. This approach could allow the program and league to stay afloat with the rest of the NCAAs, even if NIL itself goes crazy. It won't attract many five star recruits, but it will make sure the league doesn't perennially get the bottom of the recruiting barrel.
I like this better than the idea of a full ride. The only way to make that one work would be to have it cover tuition, room & board plus a stipend of sufficient size that the student athletes wouldn't need to work a campus job.
And of course, with Title IX this would have to be available to the women's team as well.
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UPIA1968
PhD Student
Posts: 1121
Loc: Cornwall, PA
Reg: 11-20-06
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03-22-24 10:15 PM - Post#366182
In response to weinhauers_ghost
The combination of anti-trust action and the Union thing at Dartmouth may well eliminate all restrictions of Ivy league money.
In the end the only thing that matters is the academic standards.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8258
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-22-24 10:58 PM - Post#366185
In response to UPIA1968
Jay Wright and coach K saw all this coming and pulled the ripcord. Wonder who will be the next legendary coach to join them; or the first successful Ivy coach to jump to an NIL school?
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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03-23-24 02:58 AM - Post#366192
In response to Streamers
I've heard Henderson mentioned around the Stanford position.
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weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
Posts: 2139
Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 12-14-09
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Let's brainstorm a plan
03-23-24 07:04 AM - Post#366195
In response to Penndemonium
I've heard Henderson mentioned around the Stanford position.
Stanford's impending move to the ACC will make that a much more difficult job, as will the recent firing of coach Jerod Haase. Three players have already entered the portal: the 7'1" center, Maxime Reynaud, and two members of this season's freshman class, guard Kanaan Carlyle (who had a very good season) and swingman Andrej Stojakovic (son of NBA legend Peja Stojakovic), whose season was pretty inconsistent. They also lose multiple rotation players to graduation: forwards Spencer Jones and Brandon Angel, and Michael Jones, a guard who was the first grad transfer ever accepted by Stanford.
Edited by weinhauers_ghost on 03-23-24 07:06 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Charlie Fog
Masters Student
Posts: 587
Age: 55
Loc: Philly
Reg: 11-12-13
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03-23-24 07:24 AM - Post#366196
In response to Streamers
Jay Wright and coach K saw all this coming and pulled the ripcord. Wonder who will be the next legendary coach to join them; or the first successful Ivy coach to jump to an NIL school?
Jay was so smart to get out when he did. This is a mess.
Congrats to Coach Jones!
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-23-24 08:27 AM - Post#366200
In response to Charlie Fog
Like putting Tim Robinson hot dog guy in charge of the investigation
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nychoops
Junior
Posts: 243
Reg: 11-23-04
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03-23-24 10:25 AM - Post#366205
In response to Jeff2sf
This is a good, smart productive interesting thread. My posts of blaming without any alternative plans might not have been my finest moment. While i stand by everything i said..this is a good idea.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8258
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Let's brainstorm a plan
03-23-24 10:42 AM - Post#366208
In response to weinhauers_ghost
I still think Stanford in the ACC is an absurdity. Why should their volleyball team travel to Ga tech for a league game.
Maybe down the road we will get down to 2 pro college leagues that can do regional divisions and unbalanced schedules.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32835
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Let's brainstorm a plan
03-23-24 10:49 AM - Post#366211
In response to Streamers
What is an absurdity is Cornell losing Earl to William and Mary, of all places. The Ivies are officially in turmoil. This is the time to bring in the name coach who will get academic players in the portal to Penn.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6413
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Let's brainstorm a plan
03-23-24 11:04 AM - Post#366213
In response to palestra38
Maybe Cornell will hire Donahue away.
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Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts: 3998
Reg: 11-23-04
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03-23-24 11:09 AM - Post#366214
In response to SomeGuy
The “college”i is coming out of college basketball.
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TigerFan
PhD Student
Posts: 1890
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Let's brainstorm a plan
03-23-24 11:59 AM - Post#366220
In response to palestra38
The Ivies are officially in turmoil.
This board is like Jerry’s bizarro world. The morning after Yale drops Auburn just a year after Princeton goes to the Sweet Sixteen and the world is ending because the (very good) coach of the third place team takes another job and a (very good) player from the league’s fourth place team transfers out.
I could be wrong but I just don’t see it.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8258
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Let's brainstorm a plan
03-23-24 01:10 PM - Post#366235
In response to palestra38
What is an absurdity is Cornell losing Earl to William and Mary, of all places. The Ivies are officially in turmoil. This is the time to bring in the name coach who will get academic players in the portal to Penn.
Don't say I didn't warn you, but William & Mary was a big surprise; not exactly a major upgrade.
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weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
Posts: 2139
Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 12-14-09
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Re: Let's brainstorm a plan
03-23-24 02:09 PM - Post#366239
In response to Streamers
What is an absurdity is Cornell losing Earl to William and Mary, of all places. The Ivies are officially in turmoil. This is the time to bring in the name coach who will get academic players in the portal to Penn.
Don't say I didn't warn you, but William & Mary was a big surprise; not exactly a major upgrade.
Seriously. I figured that if Earl was to leave Cornell, it would have been for a higher profile mid major job. This looks like a lateral move, and it surprised me.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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Re: Let's brainstorm a plan
03-23-24 02:17 PM - Post#366240
In response to TigerFan
You are not wrong, but this is the Penn basketball board, and Penn clearly needs a plan. Further, the real impact of NIL, the transfer portal, and conference realignment hasn't been felt yet. So far, the transfer portal has created chaos. It means that teams are churning rosters. In the future, the changes may actually lock in players to certain programs that provide the best packages. That's when the league will start to feel it.
You are not wrong that right now, chaos favors the Ivy League. I don't think many of us feel that long term equilibrium will. The current equilibrium doesn't favor Penn, that's for sure.
The Ivies are officially in turmoil.
This board is like Jerry’s bizarro world. The morning after Yale drops Auburn just a year after Princeton goes to the Sweet Sixteen and the world is ending because the (very good) coach of the third place team takes another job and a (very good) player from the league’s fourth place team transfers out.
I could be wrong but I just don’t see it.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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03-23-24 02:22 PM - Post#366242
In response to nychoops
NYCHoops, any suggestions on how we keep players like Dingle around a program like Penn? Obviously coaching, but we'll ignore that for this thread...
Would some form of a financial guarantee help? It may not have been a key factor in his case, but even turning a slight negative into a slight positive factor could help? Do players need more NIL support? Is the education differentiated enough to make a difference?
This is a good, smart productive interesting thread. My posts of blaming without any alternative plans might not have been my finest moment. While i stand by everything i said..this is a good idea.
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