Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts: 3777
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
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03-26-24 09:24 PM - Post#366575
In response to GoQuakersGo
Engineering and business student entrepreneurship projects aren't a huge spectator sport that brings in massive TV money and is the source of billions in sports betting. So I don't think there's all that much incentive for anything beyond minor corruption (not that that's a good thing).
However, pursuing success in what intercollegiate athletics has now become brings the risk of all sorts of scandals: recruiting, academic, point shaving, player misconduct, financial shenanigans and so forth. And there's very little the universities can do to mitigate these risks, as so much of the NIL money will likely be outside their control. What's more, the potential rewards are dwarfed by the risks. There's not that much revenue that an Ivy is ever going to generate (particularly when you consider how wealthy these universities are already), and the institutions certainly don't need the publicity that sports success can bring-- these are eight of the most high-profile institutions of higher learning in the world.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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03-26-24 09:40 PM - Post#366576
In response to Penndemonium
A question that maybe NYCHoops or other basketball fans may know something about. Is there any incentive for the AAU and HS coaches besides illicit cash? What can schools do to turn the recruiting networks towards you that is legal and appropriate (i.e. no cash and strippers)?
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CM
Masters Student
Posts: 423
Reg: 10-11-18
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03-27-24 06:00 AM - Post#366581
In response to Silver Maple
I agree, to some degree, but the NIL/money aspect of college sports has already happened. Penn (or any school) cannot simply ignore it, unless the decision is to go D3.
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AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts: 4361
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-27-24 07:51 AM - Post#366582
In response to CM
I think this has already been mentioned by someone, but wouldn’t NIL money be outside income which would offset an Ivy financial grant?
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CM
Masters Student
Posts: 423
Reg: 10-11-18
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03-27-24 07:56 AM - Post#366583
In response to AsiaSunset
Yes, 100%. Basically any meaningful Ivy NIL deal would have to start with enough to overcome paying tuition.
Essentially the whole Ivy non-scholarship policy is finally being seen for what it is. It is a D3 policy in a D1 environment. I'm surprised it's lasted as long as it has, but times are changing fast. If having Perkins (Penn) and Mack (Harvard) leaving the IL isn't enough to raise the alarm bells I don't know what will be.
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Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts: 3777
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
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03-27-24 08:46 AM - Post#366587
In response to CM
Clearly it should raise alarm bells. But that brings us to two crucial questions: 1) what, exactly is the problem here? 2) What's the goal to be achieved?
Most of us here would answer #1 along the lines of 'the conference is in on a path to becoming completely uncompetitive in D1 basketball,' and would answer #2 as being something like 'get the conference back to having most of it's teams ranked in the top 50% of D1, and a few in the top 25%.' However, I doubt very much that the senior administrators at the individual schools would answer the same way. They would probably answer #1 with 'the league's performance in D1 is in danger of becoming a source of humiliation to the individual institutions and their alumni,' and #2 with 'let's make sure our basketball teams aren't a source of too much embarrassment.' Those are very different problem/solution sets. Any solutions proposed here need to acknowledge the university presidents' perceptions of the problem to be solved.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32834
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-27-24 09:10 AM - Post#366588
In response to Silver Maple
Again, I think we have to wait for the situation to shake out. There is no way 351 schools can compete in a pay for play environment. There will be inevitable change in the Division 1 geography. Few schools actually make money from basketball even in a no-pay environment--"profitabili ty" is based on donations, not revenue, which almost always is less than expenses. Here are 2 websites ---the first lists return on investment (expenses to wins), the second lists revenue.
https://athleticdirectoru .com/articles/college-bas...
https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/schools-that -make-...
As you can see, even Duke's remarkable basketball revenue ($47 million) is less than half of its expenses.
No matter how you look at it, it's a really bad investment unless it brings in the mega donors to pay for it. While the Ivies clearly have alums who could match or exceed donations to basketball of schools like Duke, is there any desire by the biggest donors to contribute to basketball rather than a new Nanotechnology building with their name on it? No. And most other Division 1 schools have even less desire among alumni groups to pay the kind of money necessary to support an ersatz professional team in the NIL era. Division 1 is going to fracture and the Ivies may benefit from that. But is there any likelihood the Ivies will try and compete seriously for NIL players? No way.
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CM
Masters Student
Posts: 423
Reg: 10-11-18
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03-27-24 09:23 AM - Post#366590
In response to palestra38
I agree that the NIL environment is going to see a lot of turbulence over the next few years and some of the dollar figures being banded about today will not exist in a few years.
But, and this is a big but, if the Ivys choose to continue not offering athletic scholarships the sledding will only get tougher. Because NIL is not going to go away entirely and with more money sluiced into the system the lack of scholarships will seem even more antiquated and absurd.
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AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts: 4361
Reg: 11-21-04
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Let's brainstorm a plan
03-27-24 09:28 AM - Post#366591
In response to CM
I agree that scholarships are the logical next step. I also think that this will be the result as the Choi lawsuit moves along. The Ivy League holds the weaker hand and discovery and an ultimate trial is something they should want to avoid.
The motion to dismiss was filed 10 months ago. I don’t think it will be successful; however, it feels like the court is really taking it’s time.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32834
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Let's brainstorm a plan
03-27-24 09:46 AM - Post#366592
In response to AsiaSunset
The Judge did attend Princeton undergrad and Yale Law School.
Just sayin'
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nychoops
Junior
Posts: 243
Reg: 11-23-04
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03-27-24 09:49 AM - Post#366593
In response to Penndemonium
Great question...do you mean historically or current day? Also is that a general question or Ivy related?
This thread is really insightful and well thought out..i'm appreciative of everyone whose brought to light some of the current and future roadblocks the league faces
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13otto
Masters Student
Posts: 779
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Let's brainstorm a plan
03-27-24 03:44 PM - Post#366611
In response to palestra38
What is an absurdity is Cornell losing Earl to William and Mary, of all places. The Ivies are officially in turmoil. This is the time to bring in the name coach who will get academic players in the portal to Penn.
No name coach is coming to Penn, nor are any talented players in the portal coming to Penn, when there's no NIL money to lure the players. What's the point in recruiting a Perkins or Mack, when they'll enter the portal after their freshman season. Brian Earl couldn't get out of the Ivy League fast enough as evidenced by his taking the William & Mary job. Whether or not you think the head coach is the problem, replacing him wouldn't be addressing the real issue. Any solution has to include the letters NIL.
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SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4911
Reg: 02-04-06
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03-27-24 04:03 PM - Post#366613
In response to 13otto
Don’t worry, the Ivies will end up in a collective bargaining agreement with the SEIU. Then they’ll stop having to go to class and so scholarships will be irrelevant.
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CM
Masters Student
Posts: 423
Reg: 10-11-18
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Re: Let's brainstorm a plan
03-27-24 04:36 PM - Post#366615
In response to 13otto
Gonna go out on a limb and say W+M isn't dropping a huge amount of NIL $, but you know what it is dropping? Free tuition, room and board, and a cost of attendance check every semester. The Ivys are the ONLY D1 schools that basketball players have to pay to play at.
Period. Start there, address that way way way before talking about NIL with the Great Eight. And if the Ivys are resolute in not making that change then go down to D3 and stop pretending.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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Let's brainstorm a plan
03-27-24 07:15 PM - Post#366620
In response to CM
CM, I don't know your background around basketball, but if you're right about NIL counting against financial aid substantially, then it does sound logical that scholarships are the first step.
The first problem is that I think the Ivies would be more opposed to scholarships than NIL. Scholarships need to be funded by the endowment or by the budget. NIL can exist outside of that if funded by alumni. Also, the school doesn't give scholarships for being a first chair tuba player in the orchestra. The administration would probably find it more symmetrical to allow athletes to make money from their individual work in the sport, just as tuba players can earn all the money they want from teaching, working at summer camps, or even taking endorsements.
The second factor is that the pool of NIL would eventually need to cover more than tuition and board. For good college athletes, they can now probably earn as much in college as they can in Europe. Scholarships probably wouldn't be able to index to the real total compensation of college athletes, whereas NIL could.
I think going to DII or DIII, whether real or defacto is more likely. As someone else mentioned, not many schools can really make money off of basketball. A sound business model around NCAA basketball will need to include robust revenue from conference TV money, NCAA Tournament money, merchandise, and tickets to justify the spend. I could imagine the Ivies becoming more competitive if they paid the players adequately, but it would take longer for the revenue to follow. The conference won't be yielding big TV contracts or NCAA appearance fees anytime soon. Merchandise sales would take years to build as the teams got better. Also, the Ivies that are later to spend would actually be more profitable in the short term. They would get their share of the NCAA pool money, regardless of their team's performance.
So if you were Donahue, Earl, Henderson, etc. how do you build a business plan for the AD and the school president? Remember that the school leaders care more about the academic standing, the money from research and the hospital, the endowment, and generally avoiding conflict/scandal at the school. Sports are pretty distant in the priorities...
I think the conference as a whole would need to take a plan to a sports network that they will spend $X on building their sports programs for a TV contract of $Y. That way, they could keep revenue and costs proportionate as they build.
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james
Masters Student
Posts: 796
Age: 49
Reg: 03-18-19
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03-28-24 12:38 PM - Post#366633
In response to Penndemonium
there are some good takes here.
i have decided to let it go. someone here said the alumni are not going to support it anyway if it's the dollar figure net of financial aid need to be competitive which is like 250k for a good ivy player who could start for a power 5 team.
based on my experience thus far i agree. there us just a thinner base of support with some very deep pockets.
maybe penn or princeton is different.
at uga the avg booster is ponying up $15k for ticket rights + a parking pass. then they are asked to do a collective contribution.
at the end of the day it's a lot and you need a very large base of support. that us just football but the analog works for basketball blue bloods too
as it was described to me-lots of dentist types and others who give a few hundred to thousands of $s per annum and maybe to different sports
the reality is an sec program that plays big football has 75,000/100,000 seats subsidized with this medallion system and there is no limit to there fandom
we lose this game and the big money knows this and considers it futile or this is the preliminary feedback i received when i tried to push the discussion informally
i think we get pillaged wait on reform and then drop down to whatever level
it is depressing but it is what it is
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CM
Masters Student
Posts: 423
Reg: 10-11-18
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Re: Let's brainstorm a plan
03-28-24 01:14 PM - Post#366634
In response to Penndemonium
Those are the right questions, but based on how college athletics has moved in the past decade, and keeping in mind the Ivys continued commitment to not awarding scholarships/NIL, the only change is going to come from losing court cases - the Choi case specifically. But perhaps not even then.
And I hear that argument that the tuba player and the basketball player are equal in the eyes of the school, but are people tuning in to ESPN+ and buying tickets to watch the tuba player? But, again, I don't think the Ivys care or will do anything about it. They'll wake up one morning and realize they're a third class baskteball conference because they've stuck their collective heads in the sand as the world shifted around them.
I am acquaintances with an Ivy player who took a 5th year to play at another mid-major conference program. And when I asked how it was: It was free, I banked some dollars, had a great time flying on the school's private jet to games, and was generally treated super well. Glad I got my degree from the Ivy, but there's a big world of college sports out there and it's shocking to see it close up.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3618
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-28-24 02:17 PM - Post#366641
In response to CM
For me, the most obvious answer is Scholarships are a must.
It's one thing to pass up on certain money in the moment, it's another level to have to stomach not only getting money, but also putting out hundreds of thousands of dollars in cost (or having your parent do so).
An Ivy degree definitely has a value and a benefit long term, but if you are a kid who can get $250K+ (going off numbers shared here) now and get school for free, why the heck would you take $0+ and pay out $250K+?
It then becomes a net loss of $500K+ which for many would be life changing money.
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UPIA1968
PhD Student
Posts: 1121
Loc: Cornwall, PA
Reg: 11-20-06
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03-28-24 03:50 PM - Post#366645
In response to Mike Porter
Nothing says the Ivies have to provide any level of financial support for basketball, any more than giving me money when I swam as a Freshman, or sang in the Glee Club. What it is that makes bball or football different from any of the other extracurricular activities? I suppose the two sports may have some entertainment value, but so did the Glee Club, or Mask and Wig.
Anti-trust law, however, is likely to prevent the schools from banning outside support for its athletes. So in the end it is the alumni who will decide how good the program is.
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borschtbelt
Freshman
Posts: 60
Age: 74
Reg: 07-27-20
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03-28-24 04:20 PM - Post#366647
In response to UPIA1968
I see the issue as the current operation of NIL. It started years ago with Ed Obanon (prepped by a friend) to profit from your NIL from an independent source. If Caitlin Clark played for Penn there is no way they could object to State Farm commercials. But collectives paying players to just play at Penn leaves the choice: Pro or D3 amateur. I've been a fan since 67 and I'm not sure D3 isn't the better way to go. Like football years ago.
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