91Quake
PhD Student
Posts: 1126
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-28-24 04:33 PM - Post#366649
In response to borschtbelt
Feels like we are headed to D1-AA basketball. But with the vast majority of the D1 teams not being the (basketball and revenue) royalty, you could have up to 300 programs in that classification. That could lead to a really good, let's say 64 game tourney at season's end.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32835
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-28-24 04:34 PM - Post#366650
In response to 91Quake
A 64 game tourney would be exhausting!
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borschtbelt
Freshman
Posts: 60
Age: 74
Reg: 07-27-20
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03-28-24 04:45 PM - Post#366653
In response to palestra38
Not if we meet Princeton in the finals.
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borschtbelt
Freshman
Posts: 60
Age: 74
Reg: 07-27-20
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03-28-24 04:49 PM - Post#366654
In response to 91Quake
I think that's what the power 4have in mind, proposing an 80 team tourney. The play in 16 will all come from smaller conferences and a few power 5. The 64 left will almost all be power . Basketball and football are college pro sports, If they can bust the PAC 12 they can bust everyone else.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32835
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-28-24 04:50 PM - Post#366655
In response to borschtbelt
ACC is the next domino to fall, which will serve them right since they started the cannibalism by swallowing up the Big East football conference. Look for Florida State and Clemson to bail to the SEC.
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borschtbelt
Freshman
Posts: 60
Age: 74
Reg: 07-27-20
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03-28-24 04:59 PM - Post#366656
In response to palestra38
Agree. FSU is suing over the fee for departure (or being sued). Clemson wants out. I hear UNC is exploring. I hope these schools realize they all can't be near the top of the SEC with any regularity.I guess the $$ is more important. Wait until they pay the golf team to fly all over the country with clubs
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mobrien
Masters Student
Posts: 402
Loc: New York
Reg: 04-18-17
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03-28-24 05:06 PM - Post#366657
In response to palestra38
Agree on the ACC. Clemson and Florida State are leaving as soon as they can. Every other school with any football pretensions will rush for the exits after that. Big question is what happens with Duke. Maybe one of the SEC, Big 10, or Big 12 will take them with basketball in mind, but they're not bringing much to the table for football.
I see two big questions after that. The first is whether the Big 12 is able to survive. They've tried to rebound from losing Texas and Oklahoma, but it's not promising. The second is how long the Big East is able to compete with the big boys once the football money becomes even more overwhelming. For now, they've got some of the premier teams in the country, but you have to wonder about UConn looking to leave again and Hurley potentially moving to the SEC or Big 10 if it doesn't (He'd be one of the few people UK would want to follow Cal).
Could easily end up in a situation where the SEC and Big 10 split up the rest of the ACC and Big 12 between them, and the Big East fades to become more like the old A-10, a very good 3 or 4 bid mid-major league. The two mega conferences would hold the NCAA tournament hostage, threatening to leave and start their own tourney, if they didn't get more bids and force automatic qualifiers into First Four-type games. Just a horrible result that nobody other than the people running the SEC and Big 10 want.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21211
Reg: 12-02-04
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03-28-24 05:16 PM - Post#366659
In response to mobrien
The two mega conferences would hold the NCAA tournament hostage, threatening to leave and start their own tourney, if they didn't get more bids and force automatic qualifiers into First Four-type games. Just a horrible result that nobody other than the people running the SEC and Big 10 want.
We've already seen power conference commissioners complaining after all of the conference tourney upsets in the less prestigious conferences. They're complaining that their conferences aren't getting more bids that they "deserve". As if the SEC has any ground to stand on after its mostly miserable performance this go-around in the NCAA tourney.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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03-28-24 06:27 PM - Post#366662
In response to borschtbelt
Can even D3 prohibit NIL anymore? I realize that the amounts would be small, but it seems inevitable that someone in D3 would pay just a little bit more than the rest...
I was reading about ND and their position as an independent, and mulled a college athletics world that isn't bound by these conferences and the NCAA. Perhaps the Washington St., Oregon St., Stanford, and Notre Dames of the world could start a movement towards independence of their athletic programs. I could see Florida State leaving the ACC. Maybe the Ivies could start to behave more like independently run athletic programs who simply agree to compete against each other? Are the march madness fees just too high for teams to walk away from? It's hard to imagine what it would look like with the NCAA monopoly turning into confederations of independents. Maybe the NCAAs could restructure itself more like the Premier League - where teams earn their way up and down into better divisions.
All of our ideas so far seem to end in one place, though. Either pay up for bigger athletics through scholarships and NIL, or just lay down.
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borschtbelt
Freshman
Posts: 60
Age: 74
Reg: 07-27-20
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03-28-24 06:35 PM - Post#366663
In response to Penndemonium
Sad, isn't it.
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yoyo
Senior
Posts: 365
Reg: 03-25-09
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03-29-24 06:05 AM - Post#366665
In response to borschtbelt
Sad, isn't it.
Yup. College sports are finished. It’s become the G league with better pay.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2692
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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03-29-24 12:48 PM - Post#366674
In response to yoyo
How will the Patriot League handle this? Could we form our own student-athlete conference with the Patriot League? Maybe play a full schedule against all schools but have two divisions?
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slane
Freshman
Posts: 70
Reg: 02-09-05
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03-29-24 01:52 PM - Post#366677
In response to Penndemonium
Jon had this 100% correct. Of the 350 or so Div 1 basketball schools only a handful will be able to pay what will become necessary to compete. When the vast majority are relegated to a new Div 1A will the national fan interest be continued for the handful of schools in the 2 to 4 new super conferences. Will the fans of the existing Mid America or OVC, etc. really give a crap about Div 1? The only thing that will remain to drive that interest is gambling
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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03-29-24 02:48 PM - Post#366680
In response to slane
Like I've said, I am fine with watching pure amateur athletics. But I don't think it would be legal anymore for the Ivy or Patriot leagues to enforce amateurism. You would be asking for all the schools and athletes fall in line - which would be collusion. So any team that wants to win more than the rest would provide some sort of benefit.
So we're left with a pretty awkward situation. We probably can't play the all-out NIL / scholarship war, but the D3 approach isn't that pristine either.
Maybe an approach for the D3 category of schools is to do something different - have a portal of athletes that agree to certain principles of athletics participation. Those principles would spell out the financial elements. The schools would not run the portal, but they would recruit their pool of athletes from a common pool of athletes that agree to the terms in order to be in the portal. The portal allows for the schools to provide admissions favoritism and no outside compensation to those athletes that agree to it. In other words, it levels the playing field of compensation and attracts real student athletes who mainly care about admission to college. How is it different from the past? First, athletes volunteer to be on this portal. It probably isn't an anti-trust concern as long as there is no exclusivity. Both schools and athletes can elect to use the portal or not. It creates a pool of schools and athletes that commit themselves to limited compensation of some shape or form. It establishes the financial terms of athlete's participation with a third party, so the schools are not themselves taking unfair advantage of athletes.
Returning to the topic of a plan, I do think it behooves our team to be slightly ahead of the pack and to set the tone. The risk of being an innovator is to waste some money or to raise the stakes in a way which forces a counter-response from the other Ivies. That said, it does return us to the key drivers of success: Recruiting (including compensation) and coaching/leadership.
My first recommendation would be an advisory board of alumni players and boosters that works with the program. I've found that the athletic department is not very good at long range planning. They just worry day-to-day about keeping the programs afloat and dealing with NCAA compliance. I think it is left to the coaches to make an overall plan for a program, and most simply aren't good at it. Neither is the Athletic Department. There are alumni who are seasoned executives who have enough separation to think about the bigger picture and drive accountability. These alumni boards also tend to be good at raising funds - the organization of a core group tends to activate their broader community. This is good for the athletic department, the coaches, and most importantly the program overall. The board also allows sensitive subjects to be raised with school administrators. For example, the AD or coach can tell the school President "our advisory board has requested..."
An early first milestone would be to build enough success to keep season ticket holders. The members of this board who are objecting to season tickets aren't doing it just because the team is losing. We've been doing that well for a long time. They are objecting to bad scheduling, bad service to ticket-holders, and no end in sight for the program. We have a tone-deaf school that doesn't seem to care. The athletic department just isn't accountable enough and service oriented enough to fans. A core of season ticket holders would add another base-line of financial support for the program.
I am a big believer in professional sports that alignment from ownership to front-office to coaches and to players breeds sustainable success. It is clear that our program suffers at multiple layers. An advisory board would help to provide leadership to an otherwise rudderless program.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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03-29-24 04:51 PM - Post#366689
In response to Penndemonium
Penndomonium: I like your thoughts here. I would mention Penn Basketball already has an advisor board of alumns (players and boosters) that meets quarterly.
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slane
Freshman
Posts: 70
Reg: 02-09-05
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03-29-24 05:46 PM - Post#366699
In response to Penndemonium
As a group, the Ivy members sponsor the greatest number of varsity sports per school of any athletic conference in the country. How would you propose to offer athletic scholarships for only the basketball teams. To do it for all sports is far more expensive for the Ivies than for virtually any non-Ivy. (Of course the Ivies with their multi-billion dollar endowments could afford to do it but they never will.). Granting athletic scholarships on only some of the varsity sports is an invitation to litigation that the Ivies would lose.
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AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts: 4361
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-29-24 05:59 PM - Post#366700
In response to slane
There are only 6 full ride sports currently in D1 and many of the athletes at Penn and other Ivies across those 6 and others are already getting financial aid grants. The cost is not the real issue.
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slane
Freshman
Posts: 70
Reg: 02-09-05
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03-29-24 06:37 PM - Post#366706
In response to AsiaSunset
Is that correct? What are the 6 full ride sports?
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slane
Freshman
Posts: 70
Reg: 02-09-05
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03-29-24 06:38 PM - Post#366707
In response to slane
I find it hard to believe that that has not been challenged.
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AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts: 4361
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-29-24 06:49 PM - Post#366711
In response to slane
Football, men’s and women’s basketball, tennis, volleyball and gymnastics. Plus - even on these 6, you don’t need to give everyone an athletic scholarship. You just can’t give them partial athletic scholarships. It must be full or nothing.
All other sports are called equivalency sports. You can give player A a full ride, B a partial, or C none at all.
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