AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts: 4361
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: The Joe Scott Era is Over
03-22-07 06:26 PM - Post#33840
In response to Red n Blue
Vegas money is being placed on Burke or Johnson.
Forget the national search smoke screen.
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Red n Blue
Masters Student
Posts: 898
Loc: South Jersey
Reg: 11-29-04
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Re: The Joe Scott Era is Over
03-22-07 06:54 PM - Post#33841
In response to AsiaSunset
Quote:
Vegas money is being placed on Burke or Johnson.
Forget the national search smoke screen.
If I was betting money, I'd say Johnson. I still think they ought to look at Dave Calloway at Monmouth. He's a NJ guy, he knows the Princeton offense, he's taken a team to the NCAAs, he has D-I coaching experience and I think he'd be likely to take the job.
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Chuck
Masters Student
Posts: 995
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: The Joe Scott Era is Over
03-22-07 07:15 PM - Post#33842
In response to Red n Blue
What does "knowing the Princeton offense" have to do with this decision? The idea that PU should only hire coaches willing to run the "system" is just plain silly. If PU hires another PU guy, because he will run the "system", you realy have to wonder what the powers at PU are thinking.
It's one thing for an Ivy school to hae a philosophy about the role of athletics, treatment of student-athletes, etc. It's another to have a dogmatic commitment to a style of offense. It limits their choices of who to hire as a coach and shrinks the available pool of recruits to an even smaller number than it already is (which is pretty damn small).
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10Q
Professor
Posts: 23404
Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: The Joe Scott Era is Over
03-22-07 07:22 PM - Post#33843
In response to Chuck
Isn't Albert Einstein III available?
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Red n Blue
Masters Student
Posts: 898
Loc: South Jersey
Reg: 11-29-04
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Re: The Joe Scott Era is Over
03-22-07 07:24 PM - Post#33844
In response to Chuck
Quote:
What does "knowing the Princeton offense" have to do with this decision? The idea that PU should only hire coaches willing to run the "system" is just plain silly. If PU hires another PU guy, because he will run the "system", you realy have to wonder what the powers at PU are thinking.
It's one thing for an Ivy school to hae a philosophy about the role of athletics, treatment of student-athletes, etc. It's another to have a dogmatic commitment to a style of offense. It limits their choices of who to hire as a coach and shrinks the available pool of recruits to an even smaller number than it already is (which is pretty damn small).
Chuck, I agree that Princeton would do better to throw the candidacy open so as to find the best coach, rather than the best coach running the Princeton offense. To that end, I have already suggested (on other threads) that they look at one of the D-II coaches--perhaps the guy at Bentley or Mike Leaf at Winona State. However, my sense is that Princeton is not ready to move away from the Princeton offense at this time. Right now the perception would be that the problem is Scott and not the Princeton offense-- particularly since it is run with success in other places. So it was on that basis that I suggested that Princeton should take a look at Dave Calloway, the Monmouth coach. If Princeton is willing to cast a wider net, I think they'd be wise to look for a successful D-II or D-III coach. It all depends on the constraints that Princeton chooses to place upon the hiring process.
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T.P.F.K.A.D.W.
PhD Student
Posts: 1171
Loc: Our Nation's Capital
Reg: 01-18-05
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Re: The Joe Scott Era is Over
03-22-07 07:25 PM - Post#33845
In response to Red n Blue
Tarkanian!
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joe nassau
Sophomore
Posts: 150
Reg: 02-13-05
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Re: The Joe Scott Era is Over
03-22-07 07:40 PM - Post#33846
In response to T.P.F.K.A.D.W.
Tarkanian would be perfect for Princeton. I can remember years ago at UNLV he was trying to recruit a 6-10 guy who was incarcerated in a youth detention facility in Ca. Seriously, why not an ex-pro guy. The Ivys sent van Breda Koff, Daly, and I guess you could count Carril so why not return the favor? Look at what Jeff Bzdelik has done at Air Force. I watched part of the Air Force- Depaul NIT game last night and the current Air Force team is no bigger than PU, although they seemed a step or so faster. Now according to ESPN, Bzdelik may be headed to Colorado and presumably a bigger paycheck. So if a mediocre pro coach like Bzdelik can do this well, why not someone like Stan van Gundy? I'm only half-kidding. Whoever it is, you need someone to come in and really re-evaluate the whole Princeton approach, like what do you do when you don't have a lot of good three-point shooters on the team?
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Brian Martin
Masters Student
Posts: 963
Loc: Washington, DC
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: The Joe Scott Era is Over
03-22-07 07:58 PM - Post#33847
In response to joe nassau
They won't run the Princeton offense. They will run the Georgetown offense.
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Dmon826
Masters Student
Posts: 637
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Reg: 01-15-06
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Re: The Joe Scott Era is Over
03-22-07 08:28 PM - Post#33848
In response to Brian Martin
the present georgetown offense is simply the princeton offense + talent. currently gtown has a highly skilled post player (hibbert), a highly skilled high post player (green), and some great shooters (for example, wallace). and the offense allows these talented players tremendous flexibility to utilize those talents within a general pton offense construct. that said, on the princeton roster, there are no great post players, high post players, shooters, and we can all generally agree that the overall talent level is the lowest it's been there in years. that said, running the "georgetown" offense at princeton right now is pretty much impossible. it's a great long-term goal perhaps, but the talent needs to be there first.
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AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts: 4361
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: The Joe Scott Era is Over
03-22-07 09:08 PM - Post#33849
In response to Dmon826
I've seen them about 5 times this year on TV. They spread the offense, but they don't look much like Princeton to me. Hibbert is no point center and Green plays a lot on the high post, but can pop out or post up low. I don't think it's all that similar to the classic PU offense we are use to. What's similar is the spacing and an occasional back door cut - but then one can say we play the PU offense as well if that's where the similarity stops. JT3 has adapted the PU philosophy to fit his talent and has modernized the approach to suit top D1 players temperments. He's done a great job down there.
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SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4914
Reg: 02-04-06
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Re: The Joe Scott Era is Over
03-22-07 09:37 PM - Post#33850
In response to AsiaSunset
JTIII Is adaptable. When Georgetown played and upset Duke last year, they faced heavy overplay man-to-man pressure, so there were lots of backdoors. When teams sag back or play zone, on the other hand, Georgetown will look for post-ups and drives and even mid-range jumpers.
BTW, I've seen a couple of Air Force's NIT games (the blowout over Austin Peay and the squeaker over DePaul). Backdoor threats are constant and the spacing is wide, but they do a lot of one-on-one drives where the defense is to spread out to help. Some of those guys are really good at driving and reverse pivoting near the rim to turn it into almost a low-post play.
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Brian Martin
Masters Student
Posts: 963
Loc: Washington, DC
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: The Joe Scott Era is Over
03-22-07 09:56 PM - Post#33851
In response to AsiaSunset
You don't see many backcuts only because no one in their right mind plays man defense against Georgetown. Against man to man, you will see bounces passes off the dribble for dunks.
Thompson teaches the Princeton offense skills and reads, drills them until they figure it out, and then lets them play. That is why they are much better in March than they were in December. They figure it out themselves until it becomes natural to play that way.
When a Georgetown player makes a mistake due to indecision, Thompson is likely to call him over to the sideline and say, "Just play."
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Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 7001
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: The Joe Scott Era is Over
03-22-07 11:28 PM - Post#33852
In response to Brian Martin
In that sense, it is as much John Wooden's UCLA high post offense as it is Carril's Princeton offense as it is Bob Knight's Army/Indiana/Texas Tech offense. Motion offense is motion offense is motion offense.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32835
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: The Joe Scott Era is Over
03-23-07 12:04 AM - Post#33853
In response to Chip Bayers
Yes it is, and it wins when it has more talent than the other guy.
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Brian Martin
Masters Student
Posts: 963
Loc: Washington, DC
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: The Joe Scott Era is Over
03-23-07 03:37 PM - Post#33854
In response to palestra38
Thompson himself says that the "stuff" they run is not much different than what other teams run. In today's Washington Post, Georgetown guard Jessie Sapp says this about Vanderbilt:
"They run pretty much the same stuff we run, it's just that they added a little flavor to theirs, where they have a lot of shooters. They run a lot of pitch-backs and shoot the ball."
The big difference between different versions of motion offense is how much of it the coach scripts. It seems to me that teams that run a lot of scripted plays tend to peak early, while the unscripted teams figure out the offense and each other as the season goes on.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32835
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: The Joe Scott Era is Over
03-23-07 04:26 PM - Post#33855
In response to Brian Martin
Well, I agree with you certainly that teams that have more freedom to depart the script are more likely to win a second time they see a team. I still think, notwithstanding any "system" that talent wins. I know we've had this discussion before, but notwithstanding the Princeton (NY Times) mystique, Princeton has won the Ivies when it had more talent than Penn and vice versa. Actually, the only time that didn't play out that I can recall is Scott's first year, when Princeton clearly had more talent yet lost. There now appears to be a solid explanation for that.
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Brian Martin
Masters Student
Posts: 963
Loc: Washington, DC
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: The Joe Scott Era is Over
03-23-07 05:14 PM - Post#33856
In response to palestra38
No argument there, except maybe to expand the definition of talent. Some players develop skills that make them better players than other guys with more raw talent. Some coaches inhibit talent by forcing players into a predetermined role.
Thompson has a record of taking good athletes and making them better players by developing their skills.
Scott's biggest error in 04-05 was to take away Will Venable's athletic advantage in individual matchups by sticking him into a position scripted for a spot-up shooter and zone defender.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32835
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: The Joe Scott Era is Over
03-23-07 05:57 PM - Post#33857
In response to Brian Martin
No argument that JT III is a great coach...and also a great motivator. However, when you look at the talent on your 2004 team, with Venable, Wallace, Logan, Stephens and Greenman and freshmen Schaen, Schaeffer, Owings and Stittmatter...then to have Savage, Buffmire, Koncz and Conway come in the following year, it's amazing how the team tanked. At least it's amazing until you see how many players quit the team.
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Brian Martin
Masters Student
Posts: 963
Loc: Washington, DC
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: The Joe Scott Era is Over
03-23-07 06:13 PM - Post#33858
In response to palestra38
I agree, but I just want to point out some of those guys were not nearly as good as freshmen as they later became through their own hard work to improve their skills.
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Howard Gensler
Postdoc
Posts: 4141
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: The Joe Scott Era is Over
03-23-07 06:15 PM - Post#33859
In response to palestra38
Of the guys you mentioned, the only ones who stopped playing basketball were Schaen and Schaeffer. The others just stopped playing as well as they had previously.
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