SFlaQuaker
Postdoc
Posts: 2427
Reg: 11-21-04
|
Re: Let's Get Real
02-21-05 12:21 PM - Post#4474
In response to Bob S.
How many teams in the ECAC make the NCAA tournament? Of those teams, how many have a realistic shot to go deep into the tournament?
|
Red n Blue
Masters Student
Posts: 898
Loc: South Jersey
Reg: 11-29-04
|
Re: Let's Get Real
02-21-05 02:30 PM - Post#4475
In response to SFlaQuaker
If you send the team with the best regular season record to the NCAAs, you send the team which has proven itself over the long-haul. If you send the team which prevails in a tournament, you send the team which is hot at the time. The latter is likely (IMHO) to be more likely to prevail in a NCAA game. So if that's your goal, it seems like a tourney is the way to go. But I personally prefer rewarding the regular season champion, regardless of how that team is likely to do in the NCAAs. That's just my opinion-- I don't think there is a right or wrong answer on this.
|
Anonymous
|
Re: Let's Get Real
02-21-05 02:41 PM - Post#4476
In response to Red n Blue
Quote:
If you send the team with the best regular season record to the NCAAs, you send the team which has proven itself over the long-haul. If you send the team which prevails in a tournament, you send the team which is hot at the time. The latter is likely (IMHO) to be more likely to prevail in a NCAA game.
I disagree with this...because a team that gets hot over a 3 or 4-day stretch (potentially all at one site) isn't necessarily going to be hot a week later, after (potentially) a cross-country trip to play in an arena that (may be) foreign to them. The hot team from the Big 8 certainly didn't perform that well vs. Penn in 1994. And there are plenty of examples of hot conference tourney winners flaming out early in the Big Dance.
|
Anonymous
|
Re: Let's Get Real
02-21-05 03:32 PM - Post#4477
In response to
I'm not convinced that a tournament does anything for anyone. Imagine Penn not going to the NCAA's this year? If you televised an Ivy Tournament who would watch? (Besides us!)
|
Red n Blue
Masters Student
Posts: 898
Loc: South Jersey
Reg: 11-29-04
|
Re: Let's Get Real
02-21-05 06:15 PM - Post#4478
In response to
Quote:
I'm not convinced that a tournament does anything for anyone. Imagine Penn not going to the NCAA's this year? If you televised an Ivy Tournament who would watch? (Besides us!)
The really sad thing is that the Ivy Tournament would probably not be televised. I could see it being played on a Monday and Tuesday afternoon at Sovereign Bank Arena in Trenton in front of 726 fans.
|
TomPittsburgh
maximus
Posts: 538
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Reg: 11-28-04
|
Re: Let's Get Real
02-24-05 08:03 PM - Post#4479
In response to AsiaSunset
the A10 holds a post season tourney -- used to be held at the Palestra and its an embarrassment. A few thousand fans attend. I don't see how this would advance Ivy basketball. Would you play at a neutral site like Albany? Heck, Penn isn't drawing that well for games at the Palestra this year so how many would drive to Albany? Or, for that matter any site?
|
henry296
Freshman
Posts: 55
Reg: 11-22-04
|
Re: Let's Get Real
02-24-05 08:30 PM - Post#4480
In response to Red n Blue
Quote:
Quote:
I'm not convinced that a tournament does anything for anyone. Imagine Penn not going to the NCAA's this year? If you televised an Ivy Tournament who would watch? (Besides us!)
The really sad thing is that the Ivy Tournament would probably not be televised. I could see it being played on a Monday and Tuesday afternoon at Sovereign Bank Arena in Trenton in front of 726 fans.
I can't think of 1 conference whose Championship game is not on TV. Now, it will probably be on a Monday or Tuesday afternoon with little coverage, but still on TV.
|
StanfordHarvard
newbie
Posts: 18
Age: 34
Loc: 13,500 miles from Harvard...
Reg: 11-22-04
|
Re: Let's Get Real
02-26-05 01:54 PM - Post#4481
In response to dperry
We all look like Division 3 / NAIA nowadays because of our weird system and reactions  
But do you mean that we are not catching up with them? Listen up. College basketball is, oh well, in a world of scandals and all this, but for us, we are still spared...
WE BADLY NEED A TOURNAMENT TO SOLVE THE P'S BIAS. Imagine Cornell/Brown/Yale being in the Big Dance? A far cry, but possible with the help of a tournament.
I think we have one of the problems that are related to the 3 reasons that mid-majors have to run tournaments. So why don't we? That's the reason behind this.
The 3 advantages of a tournament:
1. A way to break ties
2. More exposure to different scouts
3. We'll don't get marked by not having a tournament
The 3 disadvantages:
1. It might bring a scandal
2. We might not have enough sponsors for such a tournament
3. It'll going to change the landscape of Ivy League sports forever (it may be brought to the test)
|
palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32835
Reg: 11-21-04
|
Sorry, I Just Can't Let You Get Away With That
02-26-05 02:04 PM - Post#4482
In response to StanfordHarvard
THE P'S BIAS??? That is the reason why Penn and Princeton have won 38 of 40? Give me a break. They win because they consistently are better. Now there are good arguments for a tournament---better exposure, an incentive for recruiting, what could be a good social experience for all Ivy students and alums, but Bias simply isn't one of them. The clear downside right now (and a deal breaker as far as I'm concerned) is that the Ivies will end up in the play-in game (i.e., out of the tournament) whenever the regular season champ loses in the playoff and generally will get embarrassed. When you convince me that the purpose of a playoff is not a lottery for weak teams but rather is a coming together of 8 teams competing at the same level, I'm all for it. Right now, no way.
|
Howard Gensler
Postdoc
Posts: 4141
Reg: 11-21-04
|
The "hot team" fallacy
02-26-05 02:37 PM - Post#4483
In response to
After being uninspired about the need for a tourney as expressed in the Cornell Daily Sun, my bored research assistant went back and checked to see if a hot Ivy team down the stretch had recently been denied an opportunity to dance.
Over the past 12 years, the Ivy Champion (be it Penn or the other P) in its final 10 League games, is a combined 114-6. Pretty hot. In three of those years, the champ was 9-1. Very hot. In eight of those years, the champ was 10-0. Sizzling.
In the weakest of those dozen years, when Princeton finished the 2001 season 7-3 to win the title, they were still the hottest team over the final 10 games.
That's a dozen years and the hottest team has gone every year. Can we please eliminate this reason from tourney talk and just plainly state the only case for a tournament:
Dear Ivy League,
Over the past 35 years, we the six dwarves, have shown an inability to compete with Penn (and the possible seventh dwarf). Our teams get better and worse but even when they're at their best, they're generally not good enough to beat the Ps.
We hire exciting,new coaches, we build new high school arenas, we schedule DIII schools and bottom-feeders to pad our records, we tout our recruits like they're sure All-League players when they're really the kids the Ps missed or passed on, and nothing works.
We need help.
The only way any of our sub-200 RPI teams are ever going to get to go to the NCAAs (other than the occasional cosmic interference every decade or two) is through an Ivy league Basketball Tournament. And even then it's a long shot unless you bar the Ps from competing.
But please, help us out. It's not fair that the Ivy league always sends its best team to the NCAAs. Not fair at all.
Regards,
Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, Harvard and Yale (and maybe Princeton)
|
columbia92
goober
Posts: 73
Loc: NYC
Reg: 11-22-04
|
Without condescension...
02-26-05 03:55 PM - Post#4484
In response to Howard Gensler
It's funny how people always note that we get more attention for our "unique" style of determining an automatic bid...
This article mentions Princeton more than Penn... and says that first bids aren't given until 3/5... hmmm.
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/7027461
|
Anonymous
|
Re: Let's Get Real
02-26-05 04:11 PM - Post#4485
In response to dperry
I think we have pretty well exhausted this topic, but I'll add, nonetheless. I seems to me that adding one or two more rounds to the NCAA and letting in every D1 team that wants to play would accomplish much of what we all want. You could seed the top 30, 50 or whatever into the second or third round and play the early rounds regionally. Good crowds and godd regional TV.
|
Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 7001
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
|
Reading Comprehension Problems?
02-26-05 04:21 PM - Post#4486
In response to columbia92
Or just an agenda at work?
It says first bids FOR TOURNAMENT WINNERS will be given on 3/5. And makes sure to note that the Ivy doesn't have a tournament. Did you have trouble understanding that?
This is an AP round up story, which is entirely based on reading newspapers around the country and then collecting anecdotes from them into a single piece. The Princeton nosedive squib was pretty obviously taken from the Washington Post story the other day about their struggles. And it _is_ a story, given how high a profile Scott had last season, and given that Princeton was a universal pre-season pick to win the league. It's not often that a mid-major team projected by some to make the top 25 goes out and struggles to reach .500 in its league.
Penn was getting plenty of coverage nationally last week, until Saturday, because they were among a dwindling number of teams that were still undefeated in conference play. They will get plenty of coverage nationally tonight and tomorrow if they should get the clinching win at Levien.
|
StanfordHarvard
newbie
Posts: 18
Age: 34
Loc: 13,500 miles from Harvard...
Reg: 11-22-04
|
Re: Let's Get Real
02-26-05 11:16 PM - Post#4487
In response to
But the six (or seven) rounds are already enough for the majors... the only solution to all this is a tournament!
|
StanfordHarvard
newbie
Posts: 18
Age: 34
Loc: 13,500 miles from Harvard...
Reg: 11-22-04
|
Re: The "hot team" fallacy
02-26-05 11:47 PM - Post#4488
In response to Howard Gensler
Quote:
After being uninspired about the need for a tourney as expressed in the Cornell Daily Sun, my bored research assistant went back and checked to see if a hot Ivy team down the stretch had recently been denied an opportunity to dance.
Over the past 12 years, the Ivy Champion (be it Penn or the other P) in its final 10 League games, is a combined 114-6. Pretty hot. In three of those years, the champ was 9-1. Very hot. In eight of those years, the champ was 10-0. Sizzling.
In the weakest of those dozen years, when Princeton finished the 2001 season 7-3 to win the title, they were still the hottest team over the final 10 games.
That's a dozen years and the hottest team has gone every year. Can we please eliminate this reason from tourney talk and just plainly state the only case for a tournament:
Dear Ivy League,
Over the past 35 years, we the six dwarves, have shown an inability to compete with Penn (and the possible seventh dwarf). Our teams get better and worse but even when they're at their best, they're generally not good enough to beat the Ps.
We hire exciting,new coaches, we build new high school arenas, we schedule DIII schools and bottom-feeders to pad our records, we tout our recruits like they're sure All-League players when they're really the kids the Ps missed or passed on, and nothing works.
We need help.
The only way any of our sub-200 RPI teams are ever going to get to go to the NCAAs (other than the occasional cosmic interference every decade or two) is through an Ivy league Basketball Tournament. And even then it's a long shot unless you bar the Ps from competing.
But please, help us out. It's not fair that the Ivy league always sends its best team to the NCAAs. Not fair at all.
Regards,
Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, Harvard and Yale (and maybe Princeton)
... Proposed Petition? Yes. Am I supporting it? Yes. We need it like right now!
|
StanfordHarvard
newbie
Posts: 18
Age: 34
Loc: 13,500 miles from Harvard...
Reg: 11-22-04
|
Re: Sorry, I Just Can't Let You Get Away With That
02-26-05 11:48 PM - Post#4489
In response to palestra38
Quote:
THE P'S BIAS??? That is the reason why Penn and Princeton have won 38 of 40? Give me a break. They win because they consistently are better. Now there are good arguments for a tournament---better exposure, an incentive for recruiting, what could be a good social experience for all Ivy students and alums, but Bias simply isn't one of them. The clear downside right now (and a deal breaker as far as I'm concerned) is that the Ivies will end up in the play-in game (i.e., out of the tournament) whenever the regular season champ loses in the playoff and generally will get embarrassed. When you convince me that the purpose of a playoff is not a lottery for weak teams but rather is a coming together of 8 teams competing at the same level, I'm all for it. Right now, no way.
Same level? That's not true. It's VERY unequal to see only the P's participating in the dance. The other 6 - they are dying to see their last chance at the Dance/NIT.
|
