TXQuaker
goober
Posts: 51
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Reg: 02-10-05
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03-10-05 02:33 PM - Post#6066
While Dunphy takes more than his fair share of criticism on this board, does any one think Penn would have won the league by 5 games with Fran coaching at LaSalle this year?
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Quaker Fan
maximus
Posts: 282
Reg: 11-23-04
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Re: Dunphy
03-10-05 02:53 PM - Post#6067
In response to TXQuaker
Sure - if you bring Chuck Daily back - maybe Bob Weinhauer
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32884
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Dunphy
03-10-05 03:10 PM - Post#6068
In response to Quaker Fan
What did Chuck Daly do that was so great AT PENN? He inherited an undefeated regualar season team, won, I believe, 1 NCAA playoff game, choked in '75 with a senior laden team chock full of talent, and quit after losing the '77 team, which had Price and McDonald. Weinhauer, in my opinion, resucsitated that team in '78, took them to the Final Four in '79 and may have saved his best coaching for his last two seasons.
In any event, Dunphy performed a nearly magical coaching job this season in my opinion, if you compare the team at the end of the season with the team at the start.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8321
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Dunphy
03-10-05 04:03 PM - Post#6069
In response to Quaker Fan
Maybe Bob Staak, who was the real tactician on the Weinhauer staff. Too bad he flamed out after he left.
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Anonymous
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Re: Dunphy
03-10-05 04:19 PM - Post#6070
In response to palestra38
Quote:
What did Chuck Daly do that was so great AT PENN? He inherited an undefeated regualar season team, won, I believe, 1 NCAA playoff game, choked in '75 with a senior laden team chock full of talent
Actually, Chuck won 3 NCAA playoff games at Penn, took the team to the Regional Finals once and did this when the tourney was only 32 teams and a high seed like Penn couldn't rely on getting a patsy the way a high seed can today. The '75 team wasn't nearly as talented as you might think (when it went into the NCAA's). His best player (John Engles) was lost to injury and that probably cost Penn a possible shot at going a long way in the tourney. That Chuck managed to make Bob Bigelow look like a deserving 1st round pick was one of the miracles of college coaching.
Also, though KSU didn't look like much of an opponent, they came pretty close to making the Final Four.
Bob W. was probably the best coach that Penn ever had...strictly as a coach. Chuck was clearly the best recruiter and probably second best
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Anonymous
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Re: Dunphy
03-10-05 05:09 PM - Post#6071
In response to
Quote:
Chuck was clearly the best recruiter and probably second best
There are some who felt that Digger (as asst coach) was the best recruiter.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32884
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Dunphy
03-10-05 05:15 PM - Post#6072
In response to
..and there are many who feel that Dunphy is either the best or second best pure coach. After all, Daly never inherited a team from Schneider and had to add 2 football players simply to field a team.
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Anonymous
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Re: Dunphy
03-10-05 05:19 PM - Post#6073
In response to
Quote:
There are some who felt that Digger (as asst coach) was the best recruiter
I never know what to make of asst. coaches when it comes to their recuiting contribution. Littlepage was supposed to be a good recruiter!!
Bottom line is that while CD was coach Engles, Haigler, McDonald, Price, Willis were all brought to Penn. By today's standards they were all 4 or 5 star recruits. He also brought in a slew of very talented guys who weren't quite at the same 'star' level (Lonetto, Salters, White, Smith, etc.).
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32884
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Dunphy
03-10-05 05:26 PM - Post#6074
In response to
..and almost brought in Gene Banks, who he had were it not for the delay in approving freshman eligibility. Is there any doubt that Penn would have gone all the way in '78 or '79 if it had landed Banks?
But what really is revealed is that Daly never won with his guys---Weinhauer did.
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Rob
maximus
Posts: 327
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Dunphy
03-10-05 06:15 PM - Post#6075
In response to palestra38
I agree Fran did a great job, which he always does, in my opinion. This season's great job began four years ago, when he convinced Begley to come, installed him in the starting lineup from day one, and never took him out.
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QHoops
Senior
Posts: 369
Reg: 12-16-04
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Re: Dunphy
03-10-05 06:47 PM - Post#6076
In response to Rob
Rob, I agree - and it's interesting to speculate on the last few years had Begley ended up at Princeton, which of course many people thought was the logical choice.
Notwithstanding the events of the last two months, I think that Wallace, Venable, and Begley would have made a very formidable nucleus.
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Buckeye Quake
PhD Student
Posts: 1601
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Dunphy
03-10-05 07:03 PM - Post#6077
In response to palestra38
Yeah a whole of of doubt. They still wouldn't have beaten Michigan or Indiana State. I'm also not sure how well Price and Banks would have meshed on the same team either although it would have been nice to find out.
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Anonymous
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Re: Dunphy
03-10-05 07:33 PM - Post#6078
In response to Buckeye Quake
Quote:
They still wouldn't have beaten Michigan or Indiana State
Oh, I'm not so sure about that...I think that the '79 (without Banks) had a shot at beating ISU...with him it was at least a tossup. Beating Magic and Co. was a different matter.
I also think that Banks would have merged in pretty well with the '79 team. He was pretty much of a wing player and Price wasn't. More problematic would have been how he and Kevin McDonald would have managed to play on the same team in '78. If some sort of good chemistry had been possible that front line of Banks, Price and McDonald would have been pretty impressive. FYI, it was MSU not UM in '79.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32884
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Dunphy
03-10-05 07:52 PM - Post#6079
In response to Buckeye Quake
Well, in '78, Penn lost to Duke by 4 when THEY had Banks. That Duke team went to the title game. If you put Banks on Penn instead, it probably wins.
As for '79, a Penn team coming off a prior year's final 4 appearance with a player like Gene Banks in addition to Price might well have been competitive with MSU....ahh, but it's all fantasy anyway, so I can dream it as I like!
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Buckeye Quake
PhD Student
Posts: 1601
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Dunphy
03-10-05 09:33 PM - Post#6080
In response to
I said Michigan and Indiana State. Perhaps I should have said States.
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Anonymous
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Re: Dunphy
03-10-05 09:38 PM - Post#6081
In response to
Chuck Daly was a terrific recruiter & certainly not a bad coach at Penn. Dick Harter was his equal as a recruiter & basically invented the high powered Penn program of the 70's. Daly took Harter's players to the regional final. He lost, a terrible loss to my mind, to K State at the Palestra with Ron Haigler (who I would argue was the best ever at Penn until Ugonna), Bigelow who was a pretty terrific college player and a strong supporting cast. I agree that losing Engles during the season was major. He was a nearly unstoppable force inside before the injury. Daly did lose the Price/Smith/Willis group and not too many Penn people cried when he suddenly took the Sixers assistants job. Weinhauer got the players back and had two successful NCAA tournaments, then won a tourney game the next year with a vastly depleted group & some talented but undersized freshmen (Little & Michael Brown). It's impossible to compare current Ivy recruiting to that of the 60"s & 70"s when the cost of any Ivy education was in the $7000 to 12000 range vs. $40000. In the Harter & Daly eras Penn was getting one of the top 3 to 5 players out of New York & Philadelphia almost every year. Princeton was getting high school All Americas many of whom went to the NBA and Columbia (early) and even Harvard & Dartmouth were getting national class recruits. As a game coach, I would rank Weinhauer first, Dunphy second, Harter third & Daly fourth. But it is a pretty impressive group of coaches and I'd be happy with any of them. That said, the job Fran Dunphy has done with this team is an amazing one.
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Buckeye Quake
PhD Student
Posts: 1601
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Dunphy
03-10-05 09:47 PM - Post#6082
In response to palestra38
Nothing wrong with a little fantasy.
I agonzied for years about how much of a difference Kevin McDonald might have made on that 79 team. Especially after the 78 team was robbed by Duke in, correct me if I'm wrong, the sweet sixteen?
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32884
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Dunphy
03-10-05 10:13 PM - Post#6083
In response to Buckeye Quake
You are correct that it was the sweet 16, although the tournament only had 32 that year (went up to 40 in '79). The team had the chance to win...up 8 with 8 to go and unlike the ACC teams, Penn did not go into a 4 corners (before the shot clock),Duke stayed in a zone and Gminski blocked 3 shots as Penn tried to challenge him.
McDonald had a poor game....if he had his normal game, Penn would have won easily. Very tough loss at what is now the Dunk.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21286
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: Dunphy
03-11-05 01:52 AM - Post#6084
In response to palestra38
John Feinstein notes this bizarre strategy down the stretch in his well-known book about his beloved Blue Devils.
Of course, he conveniently omits how the Quakers got a bisl revenge the next year... :-)
Quote:
The team had the chance to win...up 8 with 8 to go and unlike the ACC teams, Penn did not go into a 4 corners (before the shot clock),Duke stayed in a zone and Gminski blocked 3 shots as Penn tried to challenge him.
McDonald had a poor game....if he had his normal game, Penn would have won easily. Very tough loss at what is now the Dunk.
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Howard Gensler
Postdoc
Posts: 4141
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Dunphy
03-11-05 04:00 AM - Post#6085
In response to
Quote:
Chuck Daly was a terrific recruiter & certainly not a bad coach at Penn. Dick Harter was his equal as a recruiter & basically invented the high powered Penn program of the 70's. Daly took Harter's players to the regional final. He lost, a terrible loss to my mind, to K State at the Palestra with Ron Haigler (who I would argue was the best ever at Penn until Ugonna), Bigelow who was a pretty terrific college player and a strong supporting cast. I agree that losing Engles during the season was major. He was a nearly unstoppable force inside before the injury. Daly did lose the Price/Smith/Willis group and not too many Penn people cried when he suddenly took the Sixers assistants job. Weinhauer got the players back and had two successful NCAA tournaments, then won a tourney game the next year with a vastly depleted group & some talented but undersized freshmen (Little & Michael Brown). It's impossible to compare current Ivy recruiting to that of the 60"s & 70"s when the cost of any Ivy education was in the $7000 to 12000 range vs. $40000. In the Harter & Daly eras Penn was getting one of the top 3 to 5 players out of New York & Philadelphia almost every year. Princeton was getting high school All Americas many of whom went to the NBA and Columbia (early) and even Harvard & Dartmouth were getting national class recruits. As a game coach, I would rank Weinhauer first, Dunphy second, Harter third & Daly fourth. But it is a pretty impressive group of coaches and I'd be happy with any of them. That said, the job Fran Dunphy has done with this team is an amazing one.
What hurt Weinhauer's ability to recruit after the Final Four class of Little, Brown, Rawlings, Noon, Lardner, was the inception of the 161 Academic Index. That more than the tuition is what took the West Philly pipeline out of the mix.
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