Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 7001
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-23-22 12:24 AM - Post#346990
In response to SomeGuy
Not just twice. He did it at least 5 times.
In his defense, I believe he referred to Martz as “Hughes” once, so he didn’t seem real good on names.
He also seemed to be keeping his own box score rather than relying on any periodic updates from the SID staff, since he attributed a Charles 3 to Dingle in real-time and kept including it in Dingle’s point total when he mentioned it, until he was forced to correct himself very late in the game by his partner.
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UPIA1968
PhD Student
Posts: 1122
Loc: Cornwall, PA
Reg: 11-20-06
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11-23-22 12:42 AM - Post#346991
In response to Chip Bayers
Penn who lost only one player is supposed to be much better this year. A generous raking by Ken Pon has Penn at 182, somewhat better, but only good enough for a three or four-seed in the Ivy Tournament.
Yale who lost a bunce of talent from last year, is undefeated with a Ken Pom ranking of 104.
So far we have mediocracy compared to excellence.
What's worrisome is that this is supposed to be a top-of-the-cycle year for Penn. Top-of-the-cycle for ordinary talent maybe.
Should Yale continue its success it will put false to this board's moaning about Ivy programs being left behind.
The Ken Pom numbers are damning. Penn ranks 266 on D, Yale ranks 64.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3619
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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@Lafayette
11-23-22 01:53 AM - Post#346994
In response to UPIA1968
Ok so riddle me this...
Ed Holland III gets hosed and doesn't get a minute against ::checks notes:: Drexel.
Next game, against a far superior opponent in West Virginia, Ed Holland III gets 14 mins, puts up a 113 ORAT, scores 6 points (had a couple of shots missed that only rimmed out), grabs a board, an assist, and a block (he has had a block in every game he played), 0 turnovers.
His reward is 0 minutes against ::checks notes:: Lafayette when we looked extremely mediocre.
#%$@ is going on with these rotations. His overall metrics when playing (a decent chunk of time) are strong and he doesn't make a lot of mistakes.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3619
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-23-22 01:55 AM - Post#346995
In response to Mike Porter
Not to mention MLL could literally jump over any Lafayette players if we could execute a couple pick and rolls. 0 mins played. WTF.
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weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
Posts: 2142
Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 12-14-09
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11-23-22 02:36 AM - Post#346996
In response to Mike Porter
Those were two of the playing time decisions that made no sense to me, as well. So did not playing Spinoso for most of the second half and overtime.
I wasn't convinced we were going to win the game until the final buzzer sounded.
The game never quite made it to the level of being a Vince Curran rockfight. More like a pebble skirmish.
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10Q
Professor
Posts: 23465
Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-23-22 07:49 AM - Post#346997
In response to weinhauers_ghost
So what's up with our Quakers? What's the path forward? Has Dingle lost his explosiveness and if so, how does he get it back? Should he be sitting out games until the league? I need one of the insiders to give us the scoop.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6415
Reg: 11-22-04
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11-23-22 08:14 AM - Post#346999
In response to weinhauers_ghost
We got 16 points and 15 rebounds out of the center position yesterday. Got a double double out of the 4 position, too. Those were the spots where we outplayed them last night. So I just don’t see the problem with the rotation there. We saw a matchup problem to exploit, and we exploited it.
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CM
Masters Student
Posts: 432
Reg: 10-11-18
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11-23-22 08:47 AM - Post#347000
In response to SomeGuy
Excising MLL and Holland from the rotation entirely is insane. No way can win this year at a higher level without those two guys being rotation players. SD trading current stability for future ceiling. Great, you beat Lafayette, good luck against Harvard/Yale/Princeton with tonight's group.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6415
Reg: 11-22-04
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11-23-22 09:25 AM - Post#347001
In response to CM
I think that depends on the matchup. With Yale it will even depend on how Yale chooses to play their rotations. They vary who they play at center based on matchups, too.
Against Princeton, absolutely, MLL will play a lot.
Harvard is harder to guess, because they are still figuring out who they are at center. They seem to be leaning toward playing small, but that doesn’t necessarily mean no MLL.
Regardless of all that, Lafayette was an unusual matchup where there wasn’t much need for a rim protector and the opponent was extremely weak defensively inside. Very few opponents will look like that, in conference or out. My guess is that you won’t see MLL sit again all year.
Holland is another matter. I guess I would say I haven’t seen enough to be sure he really is the answer people think he is, but I also can’t pinpoint why he doesn’t play more. For yesterday, only guess is that all the perimeter switching we were doing meant we wanted to go with the guys who had played together the most. But that’s just a guess.
We’re going to need everybody this weekend, regardless.
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Penn90
Masters Student
Posts: 575
Reg: 11-22-04
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11-23-22 10:15 AM - Post#347002
In response to SomeGuy
It would be nice if The DP or whomever the Inquirer has covering the team would ask Donahue why Holland and MLL are not playing -- and then ask each player for their side of the story.
Donahue's rotation hijinks are reminiscent of Allen -- and a major warning sign that he can't evaluate talent and is way over his head.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8293
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-23-22 10:30 AM - Post#347003
In response to palestra38
They allow guys to call games on ESPN+ that we would have doing Lightweight Football games on a cassette before getting on XPN back in the day
OK, that was pretty funny… not to mention true.
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CM
Masters Student
Posts: 432
Reg: 10-11-18
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11-23-22 10:42 AM - Post#347004
In response to Penn90
In no universe would the players a) be allowed to, or b) be inclined to speak on the record. The coaches hold all the power in these programs and complaining about not playing would consign a player to the far end of the bench forever.
And as for asking the coach, most of these guys have great answers that ultimately put 100% of the onus on the players not performing. When was the last time we saw a Penn coach say, 'Yeah, my bad, I should have played player X more/less.'
And you beat a team like Lafayette and you're a genius for sitting MLL and Holland which means they'll keep sitting as long as you're winning.
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borschtbelt
Freshman
Posts: 60
Age: 74
Reg: 07-27-20
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11-23-22 10:44 AM - Post#347005
In response to SomeGuy
You may be right but how do you get there. You need this time to develop talent. Does MLL sit until Princeton had SD send him in? Same for Holland. Any time Jordan or Clark struggles or is in foul trouble we struggle for lack of a player who can shoot and penetrate. That's Holland. Dunphy-"Good shooting hides a multitude of sins" Dunphy about a former player---he gets assists but does not make plays. This year see Smith Reese, and Lucas. They do some good things--create offense is not one of them.
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TheLine
Professor
Posts: 5597
Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
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11-23-22 11:05 AM - Post#347006
In response to borschtbelt
I get that a big reason for the rotation nonsense is to try things out and learn from the experience, but what did we learn from this game?
Maybe that Spinoso has developed a useful inside game? I'm struggling for anything else.
P38 learned that Mosh has usefulness. Granted, it was against a mediocre team, but it's not like the Ivy League is brimming with skilled athletic ones.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32860
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-23-22 11:13 AM - Post#347007
In response to TheLine
I always knew he had usefulness. I also always thought (and still think) that if he is playing serious minutes at the 5, we are a mediocre team. We played a very weak team yesterday, allowed them to shoot pretty much at will from 3 and could not (with the exception of Mosh a few times) run a play to take advantage of our size and speed. It's a joke we were taken to OT by this Lafayette team. Now granted, Dingle can't accelerate and I think he should be sitting until fully healthy, but we have guys sitting on the bench who appear to be much more athletic and could score and rebound off of Lafayette.
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Penn90
Masters Student
Posts: 575
Reg: 11-22-04
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11-23-22 11:13 AM - Post#347008
In response to CM
You may be right, but just because a coach will give a canned answer doesn't mean you shouldn't ask it. For example, he could give his canned answer and a DP sports columnist could refute it.
As for looking like a genius, if Donahue thinks he's smart for sitting two quality players and struggling to beat Lafayette in OT then then the situation is worse that previously imagined.
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TheLine
Professor
Posts: 5597
Age: 60
Reg: 07-07-09
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@Lafayette
11-23-22 11:46 AM - Post#347010
In response to palestra38
Agree with everything you said, P38.
I was less optimistic about this team headed into the season than the board's consensus. I haven't seen anything that tempers my original opinion. This team is filled with guys who would be good options off the bench or as 4th or 5th best starter, but none good enough to help Dingle lead the team. Sure, I'd like to see more of MLL or Holland but that's just rearranging deck chairs. The talent gap between Dingle (even this banged up version) and everyone else is stark - that's the real issue.
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borschtbelt
Freshman
Posts: 60
Age: 74
Reg: 07-27-20
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11-23-22 11:46 AM - Post#347011
In response to TheLine
I think we agree-we should be finding out what Holland (particularly) and MLL can offer. I sort of feel bad for MLL who came in with a limited offensive game and due to injuries and COVID had a narrow window to develop.
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CM
Masters Student
Posts: 432
Reg: 10-11-18
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11-23-22 11:59 AM - Post#347012
In response to Penn90
The DP sports writers are basically stenographers at this point, they vomit back up exactly what the coaches tell them to.
I'd be surprised if they even watched the games they report on. Zero critical observational or writing skills in evidence.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32860
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-23-22 12:21 PM - Post#347015
In response to CM
I hate to agree with you but you are correct. My daughter was on DP Sports (Class of '15) and had grown up with Penn Sports, gone to Penn Basketball Camp and had heard the stories of the demise of Penn Hockey and the sit in. I'm still proud of her 2-parter on that
https://www.thedp.com/article/2013/04/penn- hockey-...
https://www.thedp.com/article/2013/04/bart- requiem...
But now, most DP writers are doing it solely for the extracurricular credit and have no background at all in sports--sports is just the quickest way to put an "Editor" notation on your resume. It's not easy--you have to stay up until 2-3 am to make sure all the stories are in and in good shape, do your homework and be able to make class the next day. So it's not surprising that there aren't many people genuinely interested in sports journalism as there once were at Penn.
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