palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32831
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Men's Program
01-23-24 04:07 PM - Post#362045
In response to gokinsmen
I think he is likely to get offers with better situations than Dartmouth.
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Go Green
PhD Student
Posts: 1149
Age: 52
Reg: 04-22-10
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Re: Men's Program
01-23-24 04:09 PM - Post#362046
In response to gokinsmen
Elite talents like Tosan Evbuomwan and Xaivian Lee were right there for anyone to get. Tosan emailed every single Ivy and only Princeton replied. We got lucky with Xaivian, who was recommended by Jaelin Llewellyn's dad. Even so, Princeton was his only offer and he might have signed elsewhere if someone else got to him first. Lightly recruited kids favor the first program to express interest.
I'm sure CM would blame Dartmouth's admissions for our not getting those guys.
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CM
Masters Student
Posts: 423
Reg: 10-11-18
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Re: Men's Program
01-23-24 06:00 PM - Post#362052
In response to Go Green
The last player even close to that level that went to Hanover was Evan Boudreaux (and we know why he went), and he lasted only two years.
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GoBigGreenBasketball
Masters Student
Posts: 806
Age: 52
Reg: 05-19-16
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02-25-24 01:24 AM - Post#363963
In response to CM
Do we win any of the final 3?
| "...no excuses - only results!†|
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CM
Masters Student
Posts: 423
Reg: 10-11-18
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02-25-24 07:03 AM - Post#363964
In response to GoBigGreenBasketball
After Satudray's game I'd say Dartmouth can for sure win any of the final 3. Will they? I'd not bet on it, but seeing how competitive they were with Princeton I think the Big Green can win any game.
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Greenhorn
Senior
Posts: 321
Reg: 11-24-04
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02-25-24 01:31 PM - Post#363980
In response to CM
That just makes the current situation even less tolerable. They can compete, they just don't.
I want to care about the program, but there has been precious little to get excited about in the last several years.
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Go Green
PhD Student
Posts: 1149
Age: 52
Reg: 04-22-10
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02-26-24 08:50 AM - Post#364001
In response to Greenhorn
Unless Dartmouth wins two of the final three, I think its a safe bet that we see some changes in the program in the off-season.
And even if we do win two more, it's still a pretty decent bet that changes happen.
We ain't winning all three...
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flinder
Freshman
Posts: 73
Age: 45
Reg: 11-16-16
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02-26-24 10:33 PM - Post#364024
In response to Go Green
Two of our last three are on the road, where we are winless this year. Maybe we get up for a Harvard game, but if Harvard's still in the hunt for Ivy Madness, then they'd have more to play for.
The huge step back this year is frustrating for the program. Every time it feels like we're on the cusp of breaking through, it turns out to just be a blip instead of a new normal.
The unionization thing is not great--not because I'm not pro-union, but because it seems to signal the players' discontent and their desire to organize against, from what I've heard, being pushed in practice. If that is indeed the case, then there's no chance the program is getting out of the basement as presently constructed.
Hanover High needs a new basketball coach and assistant AD...
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rbg
Postdoc
Posts: 3054
Reg: 10-20-14
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02-27-24 01:18 PM - Post#364046
In response to flinder
Since Dartmouth's new AD removed Adrienne Shibles after a couple of poor years, I would think he would be willing to make a change for the men's team.
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CM
Masters Student
Posts: 423
Reg: 10-11-18
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02-27-24 03:36 PM - Post#364051
In response to rbg
Perhaps, but Shibles was a special case, I think. Not only had she posted the two worst seasons in program history in consecutive years, she was facing an exodus of players who had either entered the portal or quit outright. Both Clare Meyer and Doreen Ariik were in the portal when Cimino took over, can you imagine how awful the team would have been this year without those two?
So, yes, McLaughlin's record has been sub-optimal, but it doesn't even approach the levels of Shibles. That said, Harrity has shown a propensity for cutting coaches loose - I think he's up to 7 firings since he took over.
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Go Green
PhD Student
Posts: 1149
Age: 52
Reg: 04-22-10
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02-28-24 06:14 AM - Post#364061
In response to CM
Perhaps, but Shibles was a special case, I think. Not only had she posted the two worst seasons in program history in consecutive years, she was facing an exodus of players who had either entered the portal or quit outright. Both Clare Meyer and Doreen Ariik were in the portal when Cimino took over, can you imagine how awful the team would have been this year without those two?
Don't forget that for her two recruiting classes, there was a combined total of one other D-I offer among her recruits. Everyone else's only D-I offer was Dartmouth.
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Go Green
PhD Student
Posts: 1149
Age: 52
Reg: 04-22-10
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02-28-24 06:19 AM - Post#364062
In response to flinder
Two of our last three are on the road, where we are winless this year. Maybe we get up for a Harvard game, but if Harvard's still in the hunt for Ivy Madness, then they'd have more to play for.
The huge step back this year is frustrating for the program. Every time it feels like we're on the cusp of breaking through, it turns out to just be a blip instead of a new normal.
The unionization thing is not great--not because I'm not pro-union, but because it seems to signal the players' discontent and their desire to organize against, from what I've heard, being pushed in practice. If that is indeed the case, then there's no chance the program is getting out of the basement as presently constructed.
Hanover High needs a new basketball coach and assistant AD...
If true, they didn't need a union for that. They could have done what they did with Terry Dunn and announce that they'd refuse to take the court for him.
He was gone a few days later.
Also begs the question of how they *do* expect to get better if they aren't being ridden hard in practice... *sigh*
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CM
Masters Student
Posts: 423
Reg: 10-11-18
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02-28-24 06:59 AM - Post#364063
In response to Go Green
I hear this a lot, the old trope of 'spoiled youth of today, don't want to get pushed in practice' and all I will add is there is no way you get to play Division 1 basketball if you're not willing to practice hard. Like, it is impossible.
However, your willingness to be pushed often relates to how you feel you're being treated as a human being. Managing a Dartmouth academic load and playing a D1 sport is virtually intolerable if you feel your coaches treat you like garbage. I'm not saying that is the case, but simply assigning to the players the 'they just don't want to work hard' is a worn out straw man.
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Go Green
PhD Student
Posts: 1149
Age: 52
Reg: 04-22-10
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Men's Program
02-28-24 09:07 AM - Post#364067
In response to CM
I hear this a lot, the old trope of 'spoiled youth of today, don't want to get pushed in practice' and all I will add is there is no way you get to play Division 1 basketball if you're not willing to practice hard. Like, it is impossible.
However, your willingness to be pushed often relates to how you feel you're being treated as a human being. Managing a Dartmouth academic load and playing a D1 sport is virtually intolerable if you feel your coaches treat you like garbage. I'm not saying that is the case, but simply assigning to the players the 'they just don't want to work hard' is a worn out straw man.
There is no shortage of counter-points to this. But I'll throw out former Dartmouth WLAX coach Amy Patton.
The General had a lot of success early in her career at Dartmouth. Was a regular in the NCAA tournaments and made a couple of final fours.
From all accounts, she ran her players hard.
Two decades and change later, she was run out of town by player complaints. The story seemed to be that Patton didn't adjust her methods to "today's" players. There's not a lot of daylight between that and "today's players are softer than yesterday's players."
I'm all for Darwin and the need to adapt/evolve. That said, I am sympathetic to coaches who are "accused" of pushing their players too hard...
Edited by Go Green on 02-28-24 09:08 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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CM
Masters Student
Posts: 423
Reg: 10-11-18
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Re: Men's Program
02-28-24 09:21 AM - Post#364068
In response to Go Green
Again, I'd point to my second paragraph. The degree to which a kid is willing to work is directly related to how they're treated. There is an inherent asymmetry to coach/athlete power dynamic, which most athletes acknowledge and live wth. But there comes a tipping point and you're probably right that modern college athletes are less likely to put up with abusive coaches than past generations. But that is not the same thing as being unwilling to work hard and conflating the two is an all too common mistake.
In fact, there's a recent example at Dartmouth I'd encourage people to read about:
https://www.thedartmouth.com/article/2024/02/coach ...
Were these runners soft?
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Go Green
PhD Student
Posts: 1149
Age: 52
Reg: 04-22-10
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Re: Men's Program
02-28-24 10:04 AM - Post#364072
In response to CM
Were these runners soft?
I'll concede that being worked so hard that physical injuries have resulted to several players is extreme. No one is advocating going back to the days of the "Junction Boys."
The Patton situation and I suspect any situation of the current MBB team falls well-short of those circumstances. Few, if any of my football teammates "liked" getting up at a quarter to six and trekking over to the field house during Hanover winters for pre-dawn offseason workouts. But we did it. And it made us better players.
Edited by Go Green on 02-28-24 10:05 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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CM
Masters Student
Posts: 423
Reg: 10-11-18
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Re: Men's Program
02-28-24 11:41 AM - Post#364081
In response to Go Green
Right, but you're making my point, college athletes expect to have to make sacrifices like waking up early for a lift. They know this is part of the game in being a college athlete, simply the price of admission. What's the saying: if it was easy everyone would do it.
I would be shocked if the Dartmouth MBB guys have issues with that flavor of sacrifice. But I'm not in the gym/locker room, so who knows.
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flinder
Freshman
Posts: 73
Age: 45
Reg: 11-16-16
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Re: Men's Program
02-28-24 11:13 PM - Post#364131
In response to CM
I mean, none of us are in the locker room, so we're all obviously speculating.
What I'm still curious about is what compelled them to unionize. Usually, when one does that, it's to get better working conditions. I haven't heard anything about McLaughlin being any kind of a taskmaster or unkind. (Plenty of players had issues with Cormier but loved Faucher, but the love for their coach didn't really correlate with the team's record...) But you don't form a union because everything is hunky-dory.
I don't know--I think I'm just confused and, given the team's continued sad-sackery, disheartened.
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CM
Masters Student
Posts: 423
Reg: 10-11-18
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Re: Men's Program
02-29-24 07:42 AM - Post#364143
In response to flinder
Agreed. The impetus on the unionization remains far from explained, other than as a general organization exercise. But why that program and why now?
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Go Green
PhD Student
Posts: 1149
Age: 52
Reg: 04-22-10
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Re: Men's Program
02-29-24 08:17 AM - Post#364145
In response to flinder
I mean, none of us are in the locker room, so we're all obviously speculating.
What I'm still curious about is what compelled them to unionize. Usually, when one does that, it's to get better working conditions. I haven't heard anything about McLaughlin being any kind of a taskmaster or unkind. (Plenty of players had issues with Cormier but loved Faucher, but the love for their coach didn't really correlate with the team's record...) But you don't form a union because everything is hunky-dory.
I don't know--I think I'm just confused and, given the team's continued sad-sackery, disheartened.
I agree with this. There may be good reasons not to publicly list the grievances prior to unionization. One of them might be that the public would not be sympathetic and, as a result, not be supportive of the union.
I suspect that such is the case with MBB. But again- its speculation on my part.
Not surprised that players had issues with Cormier. He spent some time in the NBA and probably learned some next-level stuff that he tried with Dartmouth upon his return.
And while I never played basketball, I did like Faucher as a person. I would not expect him to remember me, but we did have a short chat during his coaching tenure.
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