PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3590
Reg: 02-15-15
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Re: This proves that Covid can be managed at Universities
12-31-20 08:20 PM - Post#318382
In response to sparman
Your article restates the stat that 44 out of 1.2B is accurate. I understand the risk is higher than that due to lines at security and gates, etc. But the reality is air travel occurrences are extremely low by all credible statistics.
The presidents made a safe decision. There is nothing wrong with it and It was predictable. But defending them is a joke. Your can’t defend being the only D1 conference in the country that didn’t even try to play basketball. There were ways to do it and they didn’t want to so they cancelled.
I am actually quite sensitive to the virus as a good friend of mine, who was a basketball coach, died this week from Covid. I still believe it’s the responsibility of those in charge to do everything they can to keep people safe AND provide as many opportunities as possible to provide as normal a college life as possible.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21267
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: This proves that Covid can be managed at Universities
12-31-20 08:37 PM - Post#318383
In response to PennFan10
These are not normal times.
Full stop.
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LocalTiger
Masters Student
Posts: 437
Age: 58
Reg: 11-15-17
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12-31-20 10:40 PM - Post#318389
In response to penn nation
"There is nothing wrong with the Presidents decision,"
But "defending it is a joke."
Well- reasoned.
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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01-01-21 11:55 PM - Post#318417
In response to LocalTiger
curious if mike or pf10 have any data, or know if surveys were conducted, asking what the kids and coaches preferred.
Mike has blessedly avoided it, but there's a huge streak of paternalism going through posters like PN.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6415
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: This proves that Covid can be managed at Universities
01-01-21 11:57 PM - Post#318418
In response to PennFan10
44 just doesn’t make any sense. Of the people I know personally who have had COVID, a couple think they got it on an airplane. It seems hard to imagine that I would happen to know more than one of 44 worldwide. Do the airlines, in making that claim, know exactly where everyone who has contracted COVID got it?
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21267
Reg: 12-02-04
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This proves that Covid can be managed at Universities
01-02-21 07:26 PM - Post#318463
In response to Jeff2sf
curious if mike or pf10 have any data, or know if surveys were conducted, asking what the kids and coaches preferred.
Mike has blessedly avoided it, but there's a huge streak of paternalism going through posters like PN.
I would expect that most would want to play. I mean, that's like doing a survey of restaurant owners asking if they want to stay open or not.
But this is an issue of public health, not of "paternalism". What any individual wants to do or not do is secondary to this.
Edited by penn nation on 01-02-21 07:27 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: This proves that Covid can be managed at Universities
01-02-21 09:05 PM - Post#318465
In response to penn nation
Yeah, I’m sympathetic to the “paternalism†argument for a variety of reasons (reading behavioral ec, finding some tenets of libertarianism interesting, having interactions with folks of a political persuasion, etc.).
As PN says, though, in matters where one’s decisions directly impact those around them and society at large, I’m not as sure that paternalism applies - at least as a pejorative to be avoided.
People have obviously taken a variety of approaches to this virus. Some have ignored it entirely, others have begrudgingly taken precautions they’ve been forced to do, while others have happily taken precautions but kept mobility up, and others have stayed away from most indoor locations except when forced to, etc. Regardless of what each person’s opinion is of those approaches, I’d hope we can all agree, as a matter of fact, that the more risk a person takes, the more likely it is that they will create a new vector that ultimately in that vector chain could lead to someone’s death.
I think it is that simple fact that is driving different decision makers to make different decisions much more than it is spite about athletics or laziness. And I think we should respect those decisions rather than defaulting to conspiracy theories.
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: This proves that Covid can be managed at Universities
01-02-21 11:38 PM - Post#318467
In response to penn nation
curious if mike or pf10 have any data, or know if surveys were conducted, asking what the kids and coaches preferred.
Mike has blessedly avoided it, but there's a huge streak of paternalism going through posters like PN.
I would expect that most would want to play. I mean, that's like doing a survey of restaurant owners asking if they want to stay open or not.
But this is an issue of public health, not of "paternalism". What any individual wants to do or not do is secondary to this.
This analogy misses the mark. I want a survey of the restaurant workers, not the restaurant owners (colleges who might stand to make money off the backs of others) nor restaurant patrons (us fans).
I tend to think the NBA/NFL/colleges are responsible for very few cases outside that of the players/coaches and of course the baseline we should measure on for players isn't 0 as players would and did get sick during the offseason. You know, as I type this, there were some pretty ridiculous pictures of college football stadiums in the south. But I wouldn't have expected fans to be admitted to any Ivy bball game. I don't feel the public health argument is overly compelling.
I take Mike's points and they are good ones. we're in the darkest month of this pandemic so I can't get too worked up about not playing but also will note that the Sixers playing every other night has served as wonderful entertainment in a brutal winter. I'd feel more selfish/worse about this if i knew the players didn't want to play.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21267
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: This proves that Covid can be managed at Universities
01-02-21 11:51 PM - Post#318468
In response to Jeff2sf
I want a survey of the restaurant workers, not the restaurant owners (colleges who might stand to make money off the backs of others) nor restaurant patrons (us fans).
You'd get the same result, if not even moreso. These folks--not the owners-- are the folks who are on the hook for getting evicted, standing in long lines at food banks, etc.
In terms of the pro sports surveys, these players have a limited athletic shelf life--of course they want to play!
I'm really sorry to hear that the public health "issue" "argument" doesn't seem sufficiently compelling for you, or, for that matter, many others. This dismissive attitude is certainly contributing to the predicament we continue to face today.
We're all in this boat together.
Edited by penn nation on 01-02-21 11:53 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Bryan
Junior
Posts: 233
Loc: Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: This proves that Covid can be managed at Universities
01-03-21 12:02 AM - Post#318469
In response to mrjames
The thread title annoys me because it is incorrect. "This proves that Covid can be managed at Universities" implies that the impact on college campuses stops there. It does not. There are about 350,000 Americans who have died directly or secondarily from Covid. Every one of them was infected by someone else. There is about 1 death now for every 100 reported cases. That means that for every 100 cases on college campuses among students, where it's likely that none of those infected will die, there will still be at least one death caused by those 100 cases as the disease is passed to the next wave and the wave after that.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32875
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: This proves that Covid can be managed at Universities
01-03-21 07:13 AM - Post#318470
In response to penn nation
That is true, but it is a balancing issue. The question is what price are you willing to pay economically for a disease for which about 85-90% have no symptoms and about 1% die, the vast majority of whom are elderly or have other health risks. Clearly, what should have been done immediately was a 30 day lockdown, after telling people to stock up for 30 days, and sending everyone a check so they could pay their rent/mortgage. That was our chance to stop it in its tracks. And it had to be done at the federal level. But our political illness, one that is STILL ongoing, prevented that from happening. At this point, there is a strong argument to be made that the health risks to those who are not in one of the high risk categories, cannot justify the ongoing economic disruption. If you compare the economics of how we have handled Covid with the 1918 pandemic, we are doing far worse (leaving the stock market aside--it did well both pandemics, which tells you what Wall Street values) this time around, although Covid affects relatively few working age people. But it's pretty easy for most of us to call for drastic measure---few professionals (and that's what most of us are here) have been severely affected by this. The more than 10 million who have lost jobs and are on the brink don't post here. So Jeff's comment is a legitimate one. And the only reason to completely shut down the basketball season was that the Ivies don't care about sports. For other programs and their athletes, the sacrifices and the revenue (for the schools) and potential revenue (for the players) make the risks worthwhile (except for guys like Coach K who already has his money).
I agree that the kind of travel that the Ivies do made the threat (primarily to those associated with the programs, not the players) unacceptable. But we could have done a bubble.
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bradley
PhD Student
Posts: 1842
Age: 74
Reg: 01-15-16
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Re: This proves that Covid can be managed at Universities
01-03-21 09:55 AM - Post#318475
In response to palestra38
I have come to the conclusion that many people see the COVID issue as to a black and white issue on either side of the equation and it has translated into something greater --- politics. Therefore, it is understandable that some people would suggest that no sports should be played at all while some would advocate that fans should watch a sporting event in a stadium. There are a fair number of people who would advocate what you have suggested -- playing in a bubble at a remote location. Seems reasonable to me who is a pretty cautious elderly person who lives life in a quasi bubble.
At the end of the day, no one is going to change anyone's mind with rare exceptions. The IL Presidents made a decision that is outside the norm as to decisions made by all other conferences -- simple statement of fact. Basketball games are being played with a fair number of cancellations -- simple statement of fact. I would not be surprised if IL Presidents had concerns about playing sporting events even in a bubble if they were not permitting students on campus -- optics?
Fortunately, we have a vaccine around the corner which should dramatically reduce the noise level.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21267
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: This proves that Covid can be managed at Universities
01-03-21 12:03 PM - Post#318476
In response to bradley
I have been supportive of a bubble from the beginning, at least in terms of having the ability to deal with the public health components of this issue far, far better than what is currently happening in college sports.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3590
Reg: 02-15-15
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Re: This proves that Covid can be managed at Universities
01-03-21 11:00 PM - Post#318505
In response to mrjames
Defaulting to conspiracy theories? Don’t be ridiculous. Who on here did that?
I would bet almost every player wants to play.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3590
Reg: 02-15-15
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01-04-21 01:09 PM - Post#318543
In response to PennFan10
Another wild conspiracy theory just in:
https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketba ll/story...
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Go Green
PhD Student
Posts: 1152
Age: 52
Reg: 04-22-10
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01-04-21 03:57 PM - Post#318556
In response to PennFan10
Holy Cross and Boston U going to play tomorrow night with masks.
https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketba ll/story...
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21267
Reg: 12-02-04
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01-04-21 04:28 PM - Post#318558
In response to Go Green
And they are playing tonight at Holy Cross where according to the article the BU team will be masked but not Holy Cross.
Which seems to make little sense from a public health perspective and could make the double masking the following night irrelevant.
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rbg
Postdoc
Posts: 3065
Reg: 10-20-14
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01-04-21 04:46 PM - Post#318561
In response to penn nation
The mask wearing is certainly an interesting idea.
If this game photo is representative of how they are wearing the mask (below the nose and below the mouth), then it really isn't going to make any real difference.
https://twitter.com/GoodmanHoops/status/1 346176502...
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21267
Reg: 12-02-04
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01-04-21 05:24 PM - Post#318562
In response to rbg
It would also be interesting to view a game clip to see to what extent the masks stay in place (such as they are) when there is movement and/or contact.
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-04-21 06:32 PM - Post#318567
In response to PennFan10
Conspiracy theories don't have to be wild to be conspiracy theories. I have raised an issue with the notion shared on these boards that the presidents wanted no part of a season under any circumstances and were predestined to cancel it from the start. Different posters argued different flavors of that, so I apologize for bucketing them all together, but they generally followed that theme.
Despite articles laying out how the Ivy approached the decision and ultimately why the presidents ruled the way they did, many posters are forwarding a conspiracy theory that the discussions to potentially have a season were never in good faith, based on a notion that the presidents are always anti-athletics and thus it is logical that they would take the most anti-athletics stance possible here.
I see no way that plans would be approved for different phases of return, that teams would be allowed to practice to prepare to return and that folks around the different programs around our league would have differing opinions (both differing from each other AND opinions that changed from the same team over time) if the presidents were dead set against this and it was never going to happen. I know what it sounds like when a proposal is DOA and when it has legs. The potential to return had legs. Until many things with the virus all went south at the same time right when a decision had to be made. Then it was, indeed, a really easy decision.
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